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MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Hairpins moving about wildly on staves with independent time signatures  Forum Quick Jump
 
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Vaughan
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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 4:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Was there a trick to prevent this?

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 4:34 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can you post a screenshot?



Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

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Vaughan
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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 4:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've also had problems with ties and slurs, especially over system breaks. Kind of a nightmare! I remember that this has been a problem for quite awhile but I can't find a solution. BTW, the voice part is in 4/4 and the piano part is in 12/8 (the piano part's time signature is independent). I also remember that it wasn't a good idea to give the top staff an independent time signature, but this isn't working, either.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

Post Edited (Vaughan) : 10/29/2016 4:45:08 AM (GMT-5)


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RMK
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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 6:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The only solution I've found for this is to make expressions that mimic smart shapes (using the shape designer).
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Writer of Music
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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 6:55 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If the part remains as regular as in the image, there is no real need for an independent time signature, is there? Notate the piano part in 4/4 and show only the first few tuplets to avoid unnecessary clutter in the rest of the score.

The only way (that I know of) to avoid this known problem, is to fill in the smart shapes as very last, when no edit, and consequently layout update, is needed.

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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N. Grossingink
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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 7:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Writer of Music said...
If the part remains as regular as in the image, there is no real need for an independent time signature, is there? Notate the piano part in 4/4 and show only the first few tuplets to avoid unnecessary clutter in the rest of the score.


You can also notate the piano in 4/4, hide all of the triplets, and slap on a 12/8 time signature as expression text.

N.

OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 10:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
An old bug rears its ugly head. I sure hope MakeMusic sees this thread and puts their collective mind to the issue. If you have a feature available, and one that is necessary, it should work properly.

In the past, I have used expressions as has been earlier suggested.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 11:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The problem has been around at least since Finale 2005, and likely since the beginning. What I've always done is draw the hairpins on a non-independent staff and then copy them to the independent staff, which seems to work. If there's no endpoint to snap to in normal staff you may have to turn snapping off for that one. I have little experience with the snapping versions.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/29/2016 12:02:52 PM (GMT-5)


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Vaughan
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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 12:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's a good trick, Motet. Thank you! I'll remember to do this at the very end, however, as one can't even select those hairpins or they'll jump. Too bad we still have to resort to these kinds of tricks.
Thanks also to RMK and Zuill; a hairpin as expression is also a good workaround.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Motet
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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 12:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Perhaps a copied hairpin jumping after selecting is related to the new snapping feature? I don't recall that happening before but will experiment with 2011 and 2005. . But it's just a display thing--a screen redraw puts them back where they should be.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/29/2016 1:24:32 PM (GMT-5)

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 2:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The changing on select of the copied hairpin doesn't happen with 2011, so it must be related to the snapping feature. But redraw does fix it in the snapping version.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 2:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I just tested this with 2014.5, and can't seem to get the errant behavior. I would like to see a file with this behavior to test.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Vaughan
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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 2:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's the beginning of the file. It's true that even though the hairpins jump when selected, they do return to their proper places if you update the layout. BTW, snapping is turned off.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam



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Zuill
"The Troll"



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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 4:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Try making the file 12/8 and have the lower staves not independent. Then make the upper staff independent and 4/4. I think the bug might be triggered when the independent staff is compound. Maybe not.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 5:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's really a screen redraw, not update layout, that's needed (update layout results in redrawing the screen).

The bug involving the screen needing to be be redrawn if the copied hairpin is selected exists in 2014.5 but not 2011, as I said, so is a step backwards.

Interesting about swapping which meter is independent. That may not always be a good option, though (say, if one staff out of 20 is compound).

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/29/2016 5:42:38 PM (GMT-5)

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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  		   Posted 10/29/2016 5:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My observation was for this file only.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Vaughan
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  		   Posted 10/30/2016 5:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting. I seem to remember from posts in the past that giving the top staff an independent time signature led to even worse problems.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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  		   Posted 10/30/2016 8:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I remember it that way as well. However, I am now believing it is not the top staff at fault, but compound meter. It may have been coincidental that the compound meter was on the top staff. So, it's worth trying it backwards in this case, just to see if that works.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Motet
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  		   Posted 10/30/2016 11:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
With 12/8 on top and independent 4/4 below, a different problem emerges of the snap points being wrong:



Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/31/2016 2:12:39 AM (GMT-5)


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