|
|
| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Macintosh - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Accidental Hell (Urgent)! | Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Jeff O'Brien
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 12
|  Posted 1/20/2004 11:45 PM (GMT -6) |   | Has anyone experienced mysteriously missing accidentals when working with scores?
I can't figure out the pattern of this diabolical phenomenon. I'll be looking over a part in a score when all of a sudden I notice that an accidental is missing. The most frustrating thing is that playback hasn't changed at all--Finale knows what the right pitch is--but for some reason it has decided to play games with me, forcing me to go over every part with a fine tooth comb and fix the mistakes (if I'm lucky enough to catch them!)
When I try to correct the problem in speedy entry (by positioning the cursor over the note in question and pressing the * key), the accidental appears, but now Finale thinks that I've decided to display a courtesy accidental, and thus puts a little asterix in the lower-right-hand corner of the speedy entry window! Of course, the problem with this is it's not a courtesy accidental, but a very necessary accidental!
Up until a few days ago I was using Allegro on Windows XP. Now I'm using Finale 2004 on my brand new G4, and I'm afraid that I might be in for a little disappointment--that either this isn't a problem exclusive to Allegro -or- I'M the one doing something wrong.
This has happened to me when doing cut & paste, mostly, and particularly when I've cut a partial measure and pasted it into another staff. At first I thought that this was the problem--because a C# on beat 4 wouldn't need a sharp sign in front of it if C was already sharped on beat one, Finale was taking the "look" of the latter half of the measure literally, thus playing back a C# while displaying a C-natural.
But lately, I've noticed the problem after I've made other changes--such as transposition. Now, keep in mind I'm in the middle of a rather large score and parts preparation and my deadline is approaching fast (1/27!) I've been entering the notes in concert pitch, and today I set out to make a "parts master" by transposing the required staves. I'm using an open key signature, so I selected chromatic transpositions from the "edit staff attributes" dialog box. Because I'm using an open key signature and had been working in concert pitch up until this point, I have to go over each part to fix the enharmonic spellings. This is of course where I noticed the problem: missing accidentals in seemingly random situations.
Some things you might want to know if you have a moment to help me with my dilemna: the score was begun in Allegro on Windows XP (where I'd had this problem previously.) When I got my G4 last friday, I emailed myself the file and opened it in shiny Finale 2004 with no problem. The score was nearly complete, with the exception of the drum part, and the chord entry, which I completed on the new platform. I then set about the creation of the parts master, and while doing so, encountered the problem.
Note also that my work in Finale involves a fairly extensive use of cut & paste: this particular piece is a 350+ measure big band chart that is through-composed and motivic, with lots of counterpoint and canonic imitation. I simply have lost count how many times and in what places I've cut & pasted parts--half of those I may have changed my mind later and cut & pasted back. (Keep in mind this was all done in Allegro and I didn't have access to mirroring or any fancy stuff like that.) I know virtually nothing about the inner workings of software applications, so I'd venture a geuss that this might have something do with it.
Basically, I don't want to have to go over every part and search for these "missing" accidentals in a piece that should be complete. Does anyone know of this problem, and is there a quick fix? Have I done something wrong to cause the program to behave oddly? At least I'll know next time so I can get that much closer to the elusive "best" way to prepare a score on Finale.
What irritates me most about this is what this says about Finale's "user unfriendliness." That a music notation program would EVER--no matter what the user did (besides EXPLICITLY tell it do so)--play something back that is NOT what appears on screen, is in my opinion unacceptable. In other words, a music notation computer program should NEVER play a C# when the score says C-natural. Finale is supposed to help eliminate human copying errors, but in my case I managed to make it CREATE them.
Please help!
Jeff O'Brien, Finale 2004, OSX | | Back to Top | |
|
dmusic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 1/21/2004 3:29 AM (GMT -6) | | | I have had this problem occur in 2002 that I using while I await my 2004. I have isolated it to having entered a passage in real time MIDI,then editing a measure in which ties have been used between to group altered tones. If I remove a tie for correction, Finale does not always edit the notes which may follow in that measure to playback which matches the screen notation. I have learned to edit by listenng to confirm corrected copy. To correct I must erase the the notes affected and reenter manually via simple entry ONLY. I hope this helps. Don | | Back to Top | |
|
mknoll
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 207
| Posted 1/21/2004 9:38 AM (GMT -6) | | I recently experienced similar problems with a file that I had created in 2002 and then converted to 2003. I couldn't find a pattern for why some accidentals were carried over in the conversion and some not, and the only way I could find to fix them was individually changing each occurence--I THINK I got them all. I didn't think to use Mass Edit>Check Accidentals globally, but if it happens again I'll certainly give that a try.
Cheers,
Mark | | Back to Top | |
|
kaumann
Registered Member
 
Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 883
| Posted 1/21/2004 12:53 PM (GMT -6) | | The same problem has caused me some embarassement throughout the years and different versions of Finale.
When I described it in forum here (between 1-2 years ago), I got many answers like: it is my own fault, a true engraver always checks all etc etc.
I am not an engraver, I am a composer and this is indeed a kind of mistake that I'd never expect a notation program to do.
I have corrected many mistakes by hand, loosing valuable time in rehearsals. Luckily I know how my scores should sound so I can isolate these errors.
I hope MM will lfix this soon... | | Back to Top | |
|
migman
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2000
Total Posts : 2432
| Posted 1/21/2004 2:53 PM (GMT -6) | | Although I think it would be better for the program to know when to hide and show accidentals, I'm not sure that this is technically a bug. In Jeff's example, there is a C# on beats 1 and 4. Finale is smart enough to hide the accidental on beat 4, but the mass edit tool isn't smart enough to know that when only the last two beats are copied to a new measure, that the accidental may need to be un-hidden. By performing this copy, you are telling the program to make a copy of a note with a hidden accidental, and that is what it is doing. Using Mass Edit>Utilities>Check Accidentals is the solution for now, and I agree that it would be good if the programmers could figure out a way so that it could be more automatic.
I wouldn't like to see a feature as valuable as being able to decide whether an accidental should be hidden or shown be eliminated in favor of a "this is what you get" solution where you couldn't, for instance, show the accidental on the second C# in a measure (even though it is not needed in most circumstances). That would be getting a little "Sibeliusey" for me. | | Back to Top | |
|
Jeff O'Brien
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 1/21/2004 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | migman said...
I wouldn't like to see a feature as valuable as being able to decide whether an accidental should be hidden or shown be eliminated in favor of a "this is what you get" solution where you couldn't, for instance, show the accidental on the second C# in a measure (even though it is not needed in most circumstances). That would be getting a little "Sibeliusey" for me.
I'd never advocate limiting options. Of course one should be able to show or hide any accidentals in any place. What I'm asking for is simply "what you see is what you get." The program should, in my opinion, default to showing in actual musical notation what the actual pitch is supposed to be. And besides, copying partial measures isn't the only place in which this problem occurs. As myself and others have professed, accidentals often randomly go AWOL when transposing, among a handful of other things.
I'm going to try the previously suggested fix tonight. If it works, I'm still going to have to check every note to determine that it is so! If it doesn't work, I'll be spending a few hours away from my computer so as to avoid the temptation to lob it out my window. In either case, I'll report back.
Cheers.
Jeff O'Brien, Finale 2004, OSX | | Back to Top | |
|
dmusic
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 7
| Posted 1/22/2004 1:24 AM (GMT -6) | | | I see the problem of errant accidentals (or the lack thereof) as having a clear set of protocols developed by music engravers/ arrangers over time. Finale needs some retraining in recognizing and acking correctly whenever an edit is performed by the writer. When we write manuallyt in traditional paper and pencil format ANY edit must be both foward looking and backward in the measure in which it is effected. Finale does not have a perfect record on this score at this time. I hope that the code writers at MM/Coda will consider the need to refine the global response to edit actions to include the standard protocols for notation of accidentals (and cautionary accidentals). | | Back to Top | |
|
Jeff O'Brien
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 1/23/2004 8:49 PM (GMT -6) | | But the "Check Ties" utility appears to have done so...very strange.
I still have to go through note-for-note and verify that all the accidentals are where they're supposed to be, but if you're having the same problem that I'm having, try "Check accidentals" and then "Check Ties" from the utilities menu in Mass Edit. Or, try ties first, then accidentals. It SEEMS to have worked for me.
But even if my accidentals are fixed now, they shouldn't have to disappear to begin with. Or, if they MUST disappear under certain circumstances, at least let the user know that the problem might happen--and how to correct it--in the help documentation. I'd would have liked to see it on the first page in giant letters, actually.
I just emailed tech support, so until I hear back from them: good luck!
Jeff O'Brien, Finale 2004, OSX | | Back to Top | |
|
jascha
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 19
| Posted 3/5/2004 3:59 AM (GMT -6) | | ...actually, i have noticed this problem and didn't think much of it until i *also* noticed that choosing the "check accidentals" option would sometimes not correct the error. yikes.
sorry i don't have specific files to attach - it's way too late at night and i can't even remember which project it was. has anyone else noticed "check accidentals" missing stuff it should have caught?
-jascha | | Back to Top | |
|
Jesper Hendze
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 1998
Total Posts : 364
| Posted 3/5/2004 6:46 AM (GMT -6) | | It has been like this as long as I can remember: you have to use both Check Ties and Check Accidentals to fix missing accidentals.
And I also stumbled over the solution and reported to Coda (and the former forum too, I believe).
So of course it ought to have been documented by now.
Jesper | | Back to Top | |
|
Claude Krier
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 38
| Posted 3/6/2004 2:46 PM (GMT -6) | | I had the same problem when working with traditional notation. I did not have it in contemporary music (with spelling tables). I had to check everything and could correct by showing (shift -8 in qwertz) the accidential in speedy menu. I hope it helps you!
Claude | | Back to Top | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Tuesday, December 19, 2023 8:34 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2023 |
|
|