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OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/13/2016 2:15 AM (GMT -6)

Friends,
Here I have numerous questions:

1 - How do you handle spacing in your music (preferably complex orchestral music)?

2 - What is difference in spacing between 4-note and 8-note REFERENCE DURATION - if the system is locked (=equal number of measures)?

3 - Shall I keep 4-note as spacing reference (since that is the TS denominator), and if I want to achieve larger spacing I would increase the REFERENCE WIDTH?

4 - How can I achieve not to dense spacing? Sometimes Finale puts everything so close, I have tried to use 8-note or 16-note as REFERENCE DURATION, but I am not sure if THAT is the correct way to make it more spread?

5 - I know for JW Spacing plugin, I want here to do it globally with understanding.

Thanks for helping me.

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/13/2016 2:39 AM (GMT -6)

2. Using a smaller note value will give give larger spacing to larger notes.

3. I'm not entirely sure what effect the reference width has. In theory, I would expect it to have no effect, as "it's all relative" within the same system. But a quick test suggests there is some change. A larger Scaling Factor suggests a wider spacing, of course. Tighter spacing is achieved with a smaller factor.

4. I recently learnt a trick (which I posted on the notation forum): increasing the distance between items in Doc Options > Music Spacing can help to avoid items being too close in tight systems. Use selectively, and with caution!

Generally, I let Finale space out the music. Then I lock all the systems, and see how many pages I've got and where the section starts are. Then I adjust to finish sections at the bottom of a page and get a page count divisible by 4. (Maybe try to tighten everything up and reduce the page count by multiples of 4 if possible.) Then look through it and see if anything needs adjusting manually.

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Dr. Wiggy) : 12/13/2016 1:56:24 AM (GMT-6)

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/13/2016 3:49 AM (GMT -6)

Thank you, Wiggy.

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 12/13/2016 9:12 AM (GMT -6)

Dr. Wiggy said...
3. I'm not entirely sure what effect the reference width has. In theory, I would expect it to have no effect, as "it's all relative" within the same system. But a quick test suggests there is some change. A larger Scaling Factor suggests a wider spacing, of course. Tighter spacing is achieved with a smaller factor.

If the systems are not locked, the reference width should have a very noticeable effect on the spacing, depending on the amount chosen.

For what it's worth, I use the following settings for instrumental parts as at least a starting point:

Jazz and commercial music: .35" reference width, 1.618 scaling (gives 4 measures per system of running eighth notes)
Orchestral, Band, Chamber: .3" reference, 1.4 scaling (.25" reference tight spacing, .33" or more looser spacing)

N.

OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/14/2016 1:54 AM (GMT -6)

The explanation on page: /usermanuals.finalemusic.com/FinaleWin/Content/Finale/IDD_SPACING_WIDTHS_DLG.htm?cshid=6080 is barely understandable, particularly if one keeps in mind that Finale is not only used in English speaking countries.
It is a dry, unclear, messy explanation.
It doesn't say what happens if you change numbers and what you need to do in order to achieve your the proper result you have in mind.

Somebody said...
The Reference Width tells Finale the amount of space to allocate to the Reference Duration.

What amount of what? And what happens if I change it?

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/14/2016 4:13 AM (GMT -6)

My understanding, which may not be perfect, of most computer algorithms for music spacing is:

The computer assigns the reference width to the reference duration. E.g. Every quarter note gets 21pt of space after it.
Other note values get a space calculated by the scaling factor. So with a factor of 1.5, a half note gets 21 x 1.5 = 31.5 pt. An eighth gets 14pt.

Thus, you get a total distance for each measure. You can then see how many measures you can fit on a system. But let's say your print area is 8 inches wide, and 3 measures add up to 7 inches, and 4 measures is too much at 9 inches. The algorithm then has to "justify" the spacing, stretching it out to make 8 inches. (Or indeed, if you add another measure, it has to squeeze everything down a bit.)

And then it has to shiggle things about a bit to avoid clashes of articulations and lyrics, and everything else! To be honest, I try not think about it to much.

If you're looking for a cure for insomnia this Christmas, there's some heavy reading about notation spacing algorithms in the GUIDO notation project, and the research papers of Donald Byrd.

tuprints.ulb.tu-darmstadt.de/265/1/kai_renz_diss.pdf
homes.soic.indiana.edu/donbyrd/Papers/DonDissScanned.pdf

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Post Edited (Dr. Wiggy) : 12/14/2016 5:03:04 AM (GMT-6)

Fred G. Unn
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1268

Posted 12/14/2016 9:30 AM (GMT -6)

Dr. Wiggy said...
My understanding, which may not be perfect, of most computer algorithms for music spacing is:

The computer assigns the reference width to the reference duration. E.g. Every quarter note gets 21pt of space after it.
Other note values get a space calculated by the scaling factor. So with a factor of 1.5, a half note gets 21 x 1.5 = 31.5 pt. An eighth gets 14pt.

Thus, you get a total distance for each measure. You can then see how many measures you can fit on a system. But let's say your print area is 8 inches wide, and 3 measures add up to 7 inches, and 4 measures is too much at 9 inches. The algorithm then has to "justify" the spacing, stretching it out to make 8 inches. (Or indeed, if you add another measure, it has to squeeze everything down a bit.)

^^^ That's basically my understanding of it too. I posted a bunch of examples on this thread over at Notatio: www.notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25

Here's one demonstration I had posted on that thread on the effects of the altering the Scaling Factor:

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/14/2016 1:53 PM (GMT -6)

Thank you friends. What IN FINALE I have to do in a dense score so that it doesn't look to compressed?
Also, what is a good FINALE setting for parts of dense/complex music?
Recommendation: reference width and scaling factor?

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Fred G. Unn
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1268

Posted 12/14/2016 2:46 PM (GMT -6)

OCTO. said...
Thank you friends. What IN FINALE I have to do in a dense score so that it doesn't look to compressed?
Also, what is a good FINALE setting for parts of dense/complex music?
Recommendation: reference width and scaling factor?

I just use the default width, 84 EVPUs, and 1.5 as the scaling factor. As mentioned earlier, once you've locked your systems, you won't notice a difference in Page View when you adjust your reference width. You can unlock your systems and play around with different reference width settings until something looks acceptable for your piece. The chart I posted might be of help in deciding what scaling factor looks best to you. If you have lots of smaller values though you may run up against the "Minimum Distance Between Items" setting which may throw off the spacing too. For example the default (which is too small IMO) is 12 EVPUs, but with a reference width of 84, you'll be under that if you have 32nd notes.

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 12/15/2016 11:00 AM (GMT -6)

I like Fred's 1.5 ratio. I think I'm going to start using it for selected jobs.

So far as an appropriate ratio/reference width combination on a denser layout, I would start with 1.5/.3" (84evpu) and if needed, increase the width by small increments (.3", .325", .35" .375"). It's a process of trial and error.

Don't forget you can use different spacing widths on different passages in the same file, as needed.

N.

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/16/2016 2:32 AM (GMT -6)

N. Grossingink said...

Don't forget you can use different spacing widths on different passages in the same file, as needed.

N.

Thanks, but how?

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/16/2016 5:58 AM (GMT -6)

OCTO. said...
Thanks, but how?

Change the settings in Document Options.

Nothing will move until you Apply Note Spacing to a selected area. (Obviously, you need to do this when everything else is done.)

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/16/2016 6:19 AM (GMT -6)

That's one of Finale's strengths: you can load different spacing algorithms and apply them to different parts of a score. I use this often for multi-movement works, loading and applying a looser spacing algorithm to a slow movement with mostly 16ths and shorter note values, and a tighter algorithm to a fast movement with mostly 8ths and longer note values. I even use it for different parts in a score: looser for a violin part full of 16ths and tighter for a horn part full of whole notes.
As usual, make sure you have Automatic Music Spacing turned off and Automatic Update Layout turned on.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/16/2016 7:44 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks for these valuable information.
I wonder if one can create different libraries that could be re-loaded numerous times, every time one wants to chenge the spacing?
I know for JW Spacing, but perhaps a script that would load a library and apply spacing for selected measures could be an option, couldn't it?

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Vaughan
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984

Posted 12/16/2016 8:29 AM (GMT -6)

Absolutely!

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods

Date Joined Jun 2006
Total Posts : 12628

Posted 12/16/2016 8:58 AM (GMT -6)

OCTO. said...
I wonder if one can create different libraries that could be re-loaded numerous times, every time one wants to chenge the spacing?

Hmm. I wonder.......

Included with Finale at no extra cost!

Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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OCTO.
The radical answers.

Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 2659

Posted 12/16/2016 3:20 PM (GMT -6)

Many, many thanks.

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

Perotinus
"The ends of the earth have seen it all!"

Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 199

Posted 12/16/2016 4:15 PM (GMT -6)

Also don't forget Jari's JW Music Spacing plug in, one of the several of which he has a 64 bit version ready. This automates matters considerably and it may have additional scaling factors beyond the ones offered by MM.

Perotinus

Finale 2014.5
Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit

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