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| MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Fingering for piano - substitutions | Forum Quick Jump
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Becky A
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 10/29/2015 10:10 AM (GMT -6) |   | I am trying to create a fingering symbol used in piano music for substitutions, such as "3 / 5" or "3/5", meaning use third finger and while keeping the note down, quickly switch to finger 5. I can't find a way to make this, can't find a slash symbol in articulations. I even tried in using the chord tool because of slash chords, but it wouldn't let me enter 2 numbers, it kept adding a letter, such as 3/D.
Thanks for any ideas! | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/29/2015 10:21 AM (GMT -6) | | In articulations, you can create a shape and use that. That's one way.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present. Now 2014d.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
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John Ruggero
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820
| Posted 10/29/2015 10:47 AM (GMT -6) | | Becky, where have you seen that style for finger interchanging? I don't believe that I have ever seen it, but could be wrong. The standard way is to use a small slur between the two fingering symbols. I use the slur tool to do that with the tool set to "attach to beats" under the Smart Shape menu. Or you could create a slur in the Expression Designer: Select Expression tool, click where you want the symbol. Select the category, in this case probably Technique Text. Select Shape, then Create, then the slur tool at the top, and draw your slur and shape it as you wish. CLick OK and you have an shape Expression slur that you can use between any two finger numbers.
If you really want the slash, you can create 3/5 as an Text Expression. Select Expression tool, click where you want the symbol. Select the category, in this case probably Technique Text, then click Create Technique Text and type in 3/5. You can use the Technique Category Font if this is checked, or uncheck it and choose one of your own. A non-italic, bold font would be best. If you do this a lot, then you could create all the combinations as Text Expressions for the future.
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com
The better the composer, the better the notation. | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/29/2015 2:37 PM (GMT -6) | | I have most commonly seen a dash, as 3-5.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present. Now 2014d.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" Post Edited (Zuill) : 10/29/2015 2:46:19 PM (GMT-5) File Attachment : Finger Substitution Articulation.mus 38KB (application/octet-stream) This file has been downloaded 306 time(s). | | Back to Top | |
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 10/30/2015 5:31 AM (GMT -6) | | That's very strange. In a moment of doubt I just checked about 15 scores, from solo repertoire to chamber music and they all use slurs (actually elisions) to indicate finger substitution. I looked in scores published by Henle, Wiener Urtext, Peters, Bärenreiter, and several more, also scores of modern and older editions. Not a dash to be found. The elisions are above the fingerings when placed above the right hand notes and below the fingerings when placed below the left hand notes. As far as I can remember, I've never seen it done any other way.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 2014d, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.10.5
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB
Amsterdam | | Back to Top | |
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 10/30/2015 6:04 AM (GMT -6) | | This is the way I'd do it. Granted, using a dash is simpler, but I've really never seen it, nor have I ever written it when putting in my own fingerings, meaning that I'm used to seeing the elision. I used the Expression Tool for these. For the top fingering I entered (in the text font) a space and then a lowercase 'i'. On the next line I entered the fingerings (3 and 5). Then I changed the fingerings from 14 points (my text default) to 12 (10 might be better), the blank space in the upper line to 10 points, and the letter 'i' to the music font (Engraver) and then changed the line spacing to 9 points (absolute). I did pretty much the same thing for the fingering underneath the note but instead of using line spacing to move the symbols closer together, I used a baseline shift of 30 EVPUs for the elision character. Didn't take very long, you only have to do the work once, and it's easy to change the fingering numbers to create new ones. If I wanted to show a 'long interchange', I'd do it the way John does, with a real slur set to attach to beats and with Snap to Beats turned off.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 2014d, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.10.5
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB
Amsterdam
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Becky A
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 10/30/2015 8:26 AM (GMT -6) | | | This is all very fascinating, thank you for the excellent and thorough tips! My teacher used to write them in my scores with a slash, and I guess the slash just stuck! I just looked at a couple of Chopin pieces and see the elisions, and I'm amazed I never noticed this before. | | Back to Top | |
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Becky A
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2015
Total Posts : 12
| Posted 10/30/2015 8:57 AM (GMT -6) | | | Dear Vaughn, how did you "and then changed the line spacing to 9 points (absolute)" ? I couldn't find anything about line spacing. thanks | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/30/2015 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | I have only ever seen a dash. Never a slur, that I can recall. Odd. All the online research I've done confirms this practice.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present. Now 2014d.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
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John Ruggero
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820
| Posted 10/30/2015 10:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Zuill, I also have seen the dash in older piano music. I think the small slur or elision, as Vaughan more correctly calls it, is now much more common.
Vaughan, thanks for pointing out that this can be done with a character! I never realized that and will use your system from now on for the short ones. I emboldened the elision character and like it better that way. I also prefer the Maestro numbers at 13 pt for finger numbers, rather that the text font. Line spacing set to 4 pts works for that font.
Becky, highlight the elision and finger numbers when creating the fingering in the Expressions designer and then pull down the Text menu and you will see line spacing. I just learned about that myself! (Vaughan, I hope it was OK that I answered for you. I thought Becky might need an immediate answer.)
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com
The better the composer, the better the notation.Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 10/30/2015 10:36:47 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/30/2015 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | I noticed the Library Vaughan posted is for 2014. All I can tell is that Becky is using 2011. That's why I made my sample in 2011. Just curious.
Anyway, for my money, having the numbers that close together is not easy for reading. Just my not so humble opinion. I guess that's why I prefer the dash.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present. Now 2014d.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" Post Edited (Zuill) : 10/30/2015 3:43:15 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
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Vaughan
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 4984
| Posted 10/30/2015 11:53 AM (GMT -6) | | If you leave the fonts in their default settings for the expression category, none of those settings will be available. You need to deselect Use [...] Category Fonts or to change the size or font of something in the text window for things like font sizes and character settings to become available. For the numbers I used Minion Pro 10 point and the elisions were Engraver 16 point. A small time signature font or something like Bodoni would work fine, too.
Not that it's so terribly important: both systems (dash and elision) are perfectly clear, but I'm still shaking my head about this. I checked even more of my music and couldn't find any dashes anywhere, only elisions, and I'm talking about good editions and both standard and non-standard piano repertoire.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 2014d, Sibelius 4 - 7
Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Dolet 6 plugin
MacOS 10.10.5
MacPro 6GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8GB
Amsterdam | | Back to Top | |
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Zuill
"The Troll"
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
| Posted 10/30/2015 3:45 PM (GMT -6) | | I have 36 fingers on my right hand. Most Trolls do.
I tried opening the Library in 2011 and it wouldn't open. So, unless Becky is now using 2014 and not telling us, I don't know how she could have seen the expression demo.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present. Now 2014d.
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | | Back to Top | |
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