The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=487366
| Posted By : John Moody - 10/23/2016 6:09 PM | For me the new Finale 25.1 has been working great. I will be totally happy when the Jari Williamson plugins will be up-to-date and totally 64 bit (maybe they already are). With all the talk of Dorico I have certainly been looking at that product too. The price actually looks pretty good for crossgrade music educators! However, it seems that this new plugin from Elbound can do pretty much what Dorico says it can do - but within Finale!!! I'm wondering how the progress is going on that? Who would need Dorico once this "Perfect Layout" plugin is up and running for Finale users???
Here's a link for what is promised with the "Perfect Layout" plugin:
www.elbsound.studio/perfect_layout.phpPost Edited (John Moody) : 10/23/2016 6:19:00 PM (GMT-5) |
| Posted By : Zuill - 10/23/2016 6:21 PM | So, is this a Lua script? It's hard to tell from the website.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" |
| Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/23/2016 6:38 PM | no idea if it's free or paying either.
but it certainly looks good.
Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.
"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument." |
| Posted By : OCTO. - 10/23/2016 10:20 PM | Where to download?
And for 2014.5?
NOTAT.IO - NOTATION FORUM
Finale 2014.d 2014.5
Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM.
+ iMac + MacBook - older. |
| Posted By : Motet - 10/23/2016 11:18 PM | The author is form user <jange>. Perhaps he will chime in.
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart |
| Posted By : Zuill - 10/23/2016 11:30 PM | It seems to say that it is not ready for release.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" |
| Posted By : michelp - 10/24/2016 6:10 AM | /elbsound.studio/finale_plugins.php
They all are scripts for JW Lua and Jan seems to be waiting for an update of JW Lua to launch his scripts. Hence the 2017 deadline.
Michel
Finale v.25, 2014.5, 2012c (main), MacOsX 10.11.6, Mac Mini Intel i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express, 3 monitors. |
| Posted By : N. Grossingink - 10/24/2016 9:52 AM | John Moody said...
Who would need Dorico once this "Perfect Layout" plugin is up and running for Finale users???
Well, it seems to me that a lot of things that the Elbound plugin is designed to fix in Finale are done properly by default in Dorico. For instance, placement and alignment of dynamics and hairpins; proper placement of articulations; automatic stave spacing to avoid collisions; music spacing that seems to be well thought out and more than a step ahead of Finale.
Don't get me wrong - Dorico will not be replacing Finale anytime soon, if at all, in my toolbox. Still, Finale should have more advanced layout features to produce better output. I'm glad the developer of this plugin has undertaken the development of this product.
N.
OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work
Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients
(Finale v25 - not interested yet)
TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale |
| Posted By : Michel R. E. - 10/24/2016 10:02 AM | Well I for one don't mind paying for plugins like this that work.
If Jari sold his plugins at a reasonable price (like the full version of TGTools) I'd more than happily open my wallet for them.
Likewise, this Elbsound plugin sounds wonderful, and I'd happily pay for something like that as well.
And in the end?
This would not require me learning a new program.
It wouldn't cost even half as much as buying Dorico.
My work flow would continue as it has, allowing me to both compose and engrave in a manner that fits MY workflow rather than someone else's.
Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.
"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument." |
| Posted By : John Ruggero - 10/24/2016 11:20 AM | Michel said...
My work flow would continue as it has, allowing me to both compose and engrave in a manner that fits MY workflow rather than someone else's.
Hear, hear!
Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4 SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com
The better the composer, the better the notation. |
| Posted By : Motet - 10/24/2016 2:17 PM | If this plug-in can do it, then Finale could do it automatically.
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart |
| Posted By : Zoots - 10/24/2016 6:59 PM | I'm certainly not in the same league as many of you both in musical knowledge and using Finale. However, it seems to me strange that a program that gets used to score movies, operas, and any other type of music and is held by many to be a gold standard in computer notation has to rely on 3rd parties to do what I would have thought a top product would do out of the box.
Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria
Smartscore Pro X2
Windows 10
Intel i7 with more than I need |
| Posted By : Zuill - 10/24/2016 7:42 PM | Actually, the third party plugins can easily be fixed if broken, whereas built in features that don't work tend to never get fixed. So, I'm happy to have that paradigm.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" |
| Posted By : nordensten - 10/25/2016 5:45 AM | Zoots said...
I'm certainly not in the same league as many of you both in musical knowledge and using Finale. However, it seems to me strange that a program that gets used to score movies, operas, and any other type of music and is held by many to be a gold standard in computer notation has to rely on 3rd parties to do what I would have thought a top product would do out of the box.
I may be wrong, but my impression is that a plugin cannot extend a program's basic functionality, it can merely automate features that are already available. However, when a program designer/programmer listens to user requests, and the person in question in not a professional composer, arranger or whatever, and hence lack the practical experience of a pro's workflow, features tend to be implemented without a strong emphasis on speed and efficiency. Plugins, mostly developed by power users and musical pros rectify this by speeding up tedious and repetitive operations. Finale is certainly the current gold standard. It doesn't rely on plugins, but the plugins make the workflow much more pleasant for people using it for hours daily.
(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB |
| Posted By : weeksc - 10/25/2016 8:31 AM | Zoots said...
I'm certainly not in the same league as many of you both in musical knowledge and using Finale. However, it seems to me strange that a program that gets used to score movies, operas, and any other type of music and is held by many to be a gold standard in computer notation has to rely on 3rd parties to do what I would have thought a top product would do out of the box.
And yet all of the Adobe products in Creative Cloud use third-party plug-ins in one form or another. Even having a macro language is just another way for users and third parties to extend a program's functionality.
--Clancy
Finale 2014.5
Microsoft Surface Pro 3, i5 256
Windows 10 Pro Anniversary Edition
___________________________
I never claimed to know everything... I'm just right about the things I know! |
| Posted By : Juraj Bartos - 10/25/2016 9:42 AM | Plug-ins are essential. Imagine Pro Tools without third party plug-ins for instance.
TGTools are great, I bought them immediately when they were available, paid for 64 bit upgrade, as well.
Same with Patterson plug-ins and I donated Jari Williamson great work and I am desperately waiting for 64 bit version of his great plug-ins collection. If it is available, I am ready to donate again.
Juraj Bartos, www.serenaders.sk
Finale 2001-2012c, Finale 2014.5, Finale 25
Tobias Giesen TGTools, Patterson Plugins, Jari Williamsson Plugins
Pro Tools 11.3.1, Waves Platinum, Sibelius 7,
MacBook Pro 15" 2,6 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.10.5 (retina with SSD HD)
Korg Micro Key 61/49/25, M-Audio Keystation Mini 32
Finale 2014d, StaffPad
Microsoft Surface Pro 3 i7, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSD, Win 10 |
| Posted By : Zoots - 10/25/2016 12:07 PM | Thanks for providing me with a better perspective on the plug-ins. I can see the points you have all made.
Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria
Smartscore Pro X2
Windows 10
Intel i7 with more than I need |
| Posted By : John Moody - 10/28/2016 3:41 AM | "jange" was just on here a few weeks ago advertising some of his new fonts. Dr. Wiggy also said the Jari Williamson plugins are just about ready, however, I just went to where I think the plugins are, and it doesn't look like there is any new plugin. It seems to me that a timely release of this plugin would make many Finale users just forget about Dorico. I've been VERY interested in Dorico, but with all the complaints with the release, I am in no rush. If this "Elbound" plugin were released well before a second update to Dorico I think that would be pretty cool! I'm also hoping the Jari Williamson plugins are ready soon, so, I don't have to keep Finale 2014 on my computer. Finale 25.1 is working great for me with their latest update. I can't wait to have the full functionality of all the extra plugins!
John |
| Posted By : Dr. Wiggy - 10/28/2016 4:26 AM | John Moody said...
Dr. Wiggy also said the Jari Williamson plugins are just about ready,
I said that some Windows plug-ins have been released, and that Jari has said Mac ones will "follow soon". 
Finale v.25, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6)
Edirol FA-66; Roland A-49, HP Laserjet 5200 DTN
Ancient Groove Music www.ancientgroove.co.uk |
| Posted By : jange - 11/15/2016 11:24 AM | Thanks for mentioning my upcoming Elbsound Finale plugins.
The plugins were indeed all developed with JW Lua which runs in Jari Williamsson's plugin environment for Finale.
JW Lua is in beta state, so I still have to wait for a few fixes until the plugins can be finally released.
These fixes mainly address the usability of the plugins (i.e. the user dialogs, installation and fixes of unexpected behaviours/crashes in JW Lua).
I asked MM in 2015 to provide me with their own plugin kit for Finale (i.e. what Jari, Tobias and Robert still use) and showed them my demos from the homepage.
But they do not support any new plugin developers. That's why the project has unfortunately been delayed for more than a year now as there have been no updates to JW Lua in 2016.
If you want to support the JW Lua project, please make a Paypal donation to Jari.
The Perfect Layout functionality described on my homepage already works good - most of it has been developed two years ago and is already in use since then in a very professional environment serving orchestras like the Gewandhausorchestra Leipzig or leading European engraving studios.
All videos and images that you find on the homepage were created with the mentioned plugins and are no fakes.
Here is a new video from the Perfect Layout plugin that I uploaded today.
It shows "Niente hairpin" creation (and also automatic dynamics and hairpin handling with the default settings of the plugin):
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNYfVVNnYgw
>I may be wrong, but my impression is that a plugin cannot extend a program's basic functionality, it can merely automate features that are already available.
That's indeed wrong. What you describe is what a macro program or language like Finalescript can do: calling existing functions that are also accessible to the user, no new functionality.
A plugin can more or less do anything: it only depends on the plugin interface and what data the main program makes accessible - in this case it's Finale PDK and Jari's JW Lua/Finale PDK Framework. In these interfaces you have nearly access to every (!) information that is also available in Finale. So you can (nearly) do anything that you want.
The main limitation is: it is still a plugin that you have to call explicitly - it's not a background process that for example updates the layout on-the-fly while entering the notes (as in Sibelius or Dorico).
Jan
elbsound.studio
----
The Perfect Layout plugin on a demo score:
(Score view only! The Parts are processed at the same time, but differently.)
 |
| Posted By : Michel R. E. - 11/15/2016 11:37 AM | Jan, can you give us an idea of how much the plugin will cost when it is finally released?
This looks like a fantastic project.
Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.
"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument." |
| Posted By : jange - 11/15/2016 12:06 PM | I plan to have different editions for the standard and the professional user.
But everything depends on the further development of JW Lua on which I don't have much influence.
I don't know yet what kind of license management JW Lua will offer (or what is possible to implement),
so I don't know yet what it will look like in detaill.
Hopefully there will be a JW Lua update pretty soon.
Jari announced something three weeks ago on the JW Lua mailing list, but without any details.
Jan |
| Posted By : Motet - 11/15/2016 2:29 PM | jange said...
I asked MM in 2015 to provide me with their own plugin kit for Finale (i.e. what Jari, Tobias and Robert still use) and showed them my demos from the homepage. But they do not support any new plugin developers. That's why the project has unfortunately been delayed for more than a year now as there have been no updates to JW Lua in 2016.
You'd think it would be to MM's advantage to encourage plug-in development, not discourage it.
Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart |
| Posted By : Michel R. E. - 11/15/2016 3:48 PM | By the way, make this plugin a reality and MakeMusic can be guaranteed that I won't even bother to try Dorito.
I've been using Finale since version 3 (which is I think when it became available for Windows), and am actually very happy with most playback and most notation using it.
Issues obviously pop up here and there.
This plugin would go a long way to dealing with some of the tedium of score and part preparation.
Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.
"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument." |
| Posted By : Vaughan - 11/15/2016 7:34 PM | Agreed, although all of what this plugin does should be part of Finale's basic functionality. It's insane that after all this time, and also with some pretty fierce competition, MM still depends on third party ingenuity to clean up their mess.
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB
Amsterdam |
| Posted By : Vaughan - 11/15/2016 7:39 PM | From an engraving point of view, there's a lot more than what is listed above which needs improving. Poor accidental kerning, for example (helped a bit by a TG Tools plugin). Or non optimal beaming angles (helped by the Patterson beams plugin). Or poor spacing with ledger lines (helped by the Patterson spacing plugin). Or poor grace note spacing (which still needs extensive manual tweaking). The list goes on...
Vaughan
Finale 3.2 - 25, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB
Amsterdam |
| Posted By : John Moody - 12/3/2016 10:46 AM | Any updates on when Jari Williamson's plugin updates will be available? That's what I want from Santa. . .
John |
|