MakeMusic Forum

The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=489260

Posted By : Adam W. - 12/1/2016 10:46 AM

These forums were originally created to provide a way for our passionate Finale users to share ideas, provide valuable input, and find answers from our community. A number of other great public forums for discussion about our products and best practices have become available since this platform first began. These include Facebook, SHSU, Twitter, Yahoo and various other forums and blogs. Also, as many of you know, the release of our new Help Center over the summer provides another avenue for discussion and input.

In an effort to provide a centralized, accessible, and most of all, helpful community for all of our customers, we are focusing our resources on the new forums in our Help Center Community. As of January 1st, 2017, we will only monitor and support these new forums. At that time these existing forums will be locked.

We want this large body of valuable information to remain available, so while these forums will be locked at the end of the year, they will be archived so that they can still be accessed by those looking for any of the helpful historical information located here.

We want to thank you for the value you’ve already provided to MakeMusic and its customers in these forums, and we look forward to seeing you in our new Help Center Community!

Best,

Adam Wig
Director, Customer Success

Michael Johnson
Vice President, Professional Notation

Fred Flowerday,
Senior Vice President, Product Strategy

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/1/2016 11:14 AM

You are making a big mistake. The new forum is worthless in its current format. There is no way to see who made the last comment without going into the thread. Posting files or pictures is unwieldy. "Voting" on comments is absurd.

I will strongly suggest that current users bring their years of expertise, and come join us on the "other" Finale forum, at http://www.finaleforum.com.

Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 12/1/2016 11:55 AM

Without substantial improvements, improvements that were recommended when you first brought out this new site for Finale users I can only reiterate my initial response.
What kind of idiots do you have working for Make Music to believe this is acceptable?

To many queries get no response whatsoever, and some are not answered in any depth that is needed.

I'd really like to know your thought process' in the decision that this is of any benefit to the user base in its current form?

Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.2, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, Notion 5 (Notion 5 not really any better than 4, [Notion 6 (bought but not installed)]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), 2@ Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

Posted By : HaraldS - 12/1/2016 12:34 PM

You're heading into the wrong direction, I'm afraid. As for the "Feature Request" Forum: Adam, three months ago, you promised to consider how to make this forum more effective, do you remember?: https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/218091567-Here-is-a-request-about-this-Forum . Nothing has happened since. Instead of moving misplaced threads to the appropriate General Discussion Forum, you don't seem to care: https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/214070088-Using-Cross-staff-notes-in-FinalePrintmusic2014- . The Feature Request Forum is a good idea in general, but if you don't moderate it and don't seem to care about your own Feature Request House Rules ( https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/topics/200449177-Finale-Feature-Requests ), better close it, please.

And another thought: in today's times, when Dorico's chief developer spends lots of time to answer questions on their forum personally, do you really think it would enhance Finale's customer's success if you replace this forum by new ones? I don't think so. Instead it's time to get in touch directly with the users like e.g. Randy Stokes did in former times here.

Harald

Finale 3.0-2014.5, german edition, Windows 7
mostly hardware synths/keys, Cubase 7 / trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

Posted By : Zuill - 12/1/2016 1:13 PM

I vote for keeping this forum as well. I am not comfortable with the other format, and my forum days might be coming to an end. Too bad.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Ron. - 12/1/2016 1:46 PM

I guess my 14 years of providing help and advice is coming to an end. I will not use the amateurish and badly constructed "new" help forum. I'll miss the troll--among others.

Finale 25.1

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Motet - 12/1/2016 2:04 PM

What MM doesn't fully realize, I think, is that Finale is so arcane that a customer support person, no matter how smart, is going to have limited knowledge compared with someone who has lived with the program day in and day out for 10 years or more. I know these forums have been invaluable to me.

The new forums are terrible for several reasons, and I'm not sure are workable for me. I wonder if they've signed some multi-year contract or could instead find something better.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : Bill Reed - 12/1/2016 2:10 PM

Ironic that Adam's link to the help center doesn't work...

Finale 25, Sibelius 8.4, Notion 6, Overture 5.1, Cubase 8.5
Win10 x64, 32GB RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
Kontakt, VSL, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos
August Forster 190

Posted By : Zuill - 12/1/2016 2:47 PM

Ironic indeed. And foreboding.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : mm - 12/1/2016 3:05 PM

I'm with you all. Absolutely. Everything said ist spot on. This so-called new Help Center is idiotic and useless. And thanks to all who have so passionately participated on this now gracelessly dying forum - I've learned so much and always found an answer when I needed it. Shame on Make Music. Customer Success? Ha!

Finale 3.7 - 2014.5, GPO4/5, Dorico, Cubase, ProTools, ASUS laptop, Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, WIN 8.1 (64-bit), 18.4'' display, M-Audio Keystation 49 + Mini 32 keyboards

Posted By : Derrek - 12/1/2016 3:05 PM

If this forum is to be archived, how will anyone find anything with the current, broken search function?

This forum is not perfect, but it is vastly more user friendly than the new one(s)--and I say that as someone who has used both extensively, not to mention the Steinberg/Dorico Forum. I've made a note of the site Mike suggested and will look for the FB PowerUsers site.

Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

Posted By : michelp - 12/1/2016 4:27 PM

I fully agree. The new forum doesn't meet professional standards. The shortcomings are many, like Mike Rosen and others pointed out. It is not even possible to see what software, and which version the poster is using : PrintMusic, Finale 20XX ? Which Os they use, etc... A huge mess, no logic, no organization. I second Jan's suggestion to move to a better forum tool, because what we need is more, not less content and usability. And don't get me started on the Facebook page !
MM, you are shooting yourself in the foot !

Michel
Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2012c (main), MacOsX 10.11.6, Mac Mini Intel i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express.

Posted By : CV186 - 12/1/2016 5:04 PM

This is very sad news. I've tried the new "Help Center" several times and it seems almost completely useless.

2.8GHz MacBookPro11,1 | 8GB RAM | OSX10.12.1 | Fin25.1/2014.5 | MOTU Traveler1 | GPO4+5

Posted By : Motet - 12/1/2016 5:35 PM

jange's information about migrating the data is excellent. Do that!

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : MSTSmusic - 12/1/2016 5:36 PM

This the way to make sure Dorico will kill Finale sooner, not later. Good job.

Bought Finale (V2.0.1) for PC on Tuesday 3rd of March 1992. Yesterday, that is.

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/1/2016 6:11 PM

why don't MakeMusic simply switch all help centre activity to Twitter?

/s

Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

Posted By : gogreen - 12/1/2016 7:44 PM

Adam, Michael, and Fred said...
These forums were originally created to provide a way for our passionate Finale users to share ideas, provide valuable input, and find answers from our community. A number of other great public forums for discussion about our products and best practices have become available since this platform first began. These include Facebook, SHSU, Twitter, Yahoo and various other forums and blogs. Also, as many of you know, the release of our new Help Center over the summer provides another avenue for discussion and input.

In an effort to provide a centralized, accessible, and most of all, helpful community for all of our customers, we are focusing our resources on the new forums in our Help Center Community. As of January 1st, 2017, we will only monitor and support these new forums. At that time these existing forums will be locked.

We want this large body of valuable information to remain available, so while these forums will be locked at the end of the year, they will be archived so that they can still be accessed by those looking for any of the helpful historical information located here.

We want to thank you for the value you’ve already provided to MakeMusic and its customers in these forums, and we look forward to seeing you in our new Help Center Community!

Best,

Adam Wig
Director, Customer Success

Michael Johnson
Vice President, Professional Notation

Fred Flowerday,
Senior Vice President, Product Strategy

Adam, Michael, and Fred: As constructively as I can say, I must say you're making a big mistake. You should migrate this forum and its wealth of information to new software and keep it going.

Arthur J. Michaels

/www.facebook.com/composerarthurjmichaels

Finale 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2011b.r2, 2014d, 2014.5, Finale 25
Core i7 860 @ 2.80 GHz, 8.0 GB RAM, Windows 10 Home x64
Garritan COMB2, GPO4, GPO5, Aria Player 1.872, Audacity 2.1.2
Dell 2408 WFP, 1920x1200
M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496
Casio WK-3000
M-Audio AV40 monitors
AKG K-240 Studio headphones
Brother MFC-L2740DW printer

Posted By : David Clarence - 12/1/2016 11:51 PM

I second all of the above. Closing this forum is crazy. I have learnt so much and gotten out of so many holes thanks to the freely given advice from its many knowledgeable denizens that I shudder to think what it would be like without it. The new forums seem useless by comparison. MM should seriously reconsider such a short-sighted decision.

Finale 2014.5, v25.1
macOS Sierra 10.12
Full TGTools
JW Plug-ins

iMac 21.5" 2.7GHz Intel Core i5 8GB RAM

Posted By : SysExJohn - 12/2/2016 6:57 AM

Well, if they do go ahead, then GPO5 will be my LAST Garritan product, and my next version of notation software will NOT be Finale.

Not that my feelings will make one iota of difference to a "management decision", in my experience.
There are none as deaf as those who will not hear.

A sad, sad day.

John Garside.

at MIDI-tutor.proboards.com

Finale 2012c, Sonar 7 PE, XGworks.
Garritan GPO4, JABB, COMB, IO, Organs, Steinway, Harps + GPO5.
E-MU 1616m PCI and Cardbus x 2.
Yamaha AN1x.

Post Edited (SysExJohn) : 12/2/2016 6:00:18 AM (GMT-6)

Posted By : johnmouse - 12/2/2016 7:48 AM

Huge mistake! Questions and answers from users are valuable. What SHOULD HAVE been done, years ago, as foretold and promised (yet another broken promise), would have been to migrate to new forum software. I have used MM's help center before, and frankly it's about as useful as teats on a boar hog.

I agree with jange and others. Simply migrate this current forum to software that is actually in use today. Even if the present content is archived as read only, it would still be useful. Presently, by locking this forum, you might as well just delete the entire thing as the search function does not work, and has not worked for quite some time now.

MM's proposal on killing this users forum is a big mistake. This is not how to influence and gain new customers. Nor is it the way to treat current customers. Adam, I urge you and MM to seriously reconsider this decision.

John

Finale 2012/2014 (Well, it's installed.)
M-Audio KeyRig 49
Desktop: Windows 8.1/i5 Core/8 Gig RAM
Laptop: Windows 7/i3 Core/6 Gig RAM

Posted By : Ron. - 12/2/2016 8:18 AM

I've been experimenting with Dorico. Without this forum, why should I stay with Finale? It's the best thing Finale has going for it.

Finale 25.1

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Credo - 12/2/2016 9:58 AM

Big mistake!

Having users rely on some third party front end like Facebook (or any other outside 'media merging' service) are:

1. Ultra distracting. I don't want advertisements, junk news links, and political nonsense mixed in with my cozy work den, and as an educator, it's difficult enough keeping students focused as it is!

2. Unsecure. I can convince sysops in educational and professional environments to let these forums through their firewalls. Good luck making that happen for the leading 'social media sites'. People are paid with tax dollars 'to work' with tools that are relative to their job descriptions, not play with adverts and kitten pictures on Face Book! Many states have outright legislative bans on allowing state workstations access to 'social media' sites like Facebook from state owned (schools, universities, etc.) with out all sorts of 'limited special need' permission slips that are an administrative and legal nightmare for everyone involved!

3. Short Sighted. MakeMusic will 'lose control' of what the consumer gets to see mixed in with the content. There will be nothing to stop AVID, Steinberg, Prosounus, or whoever, from buying Ads and plunking it right in the middle of your 'support network'.

4. Unwise. MakeMusic could lose the ability to access, maintain, and control any DATA collected from USERS by relying on so many 'free and external' social media outlets. While they might currently keep a running db and provide tools for locking down the information and data-mining your own pages/wall, they reserve the right to TAKE THAT AWAY at any time! The content will no longer belong to MakeMusic..........and said social media companies might hold your own data for ransom (and even grant your competitors less limited access)!

There are better ways to save money. Think of it like this!

Small towns across the USA once had many millionaires who became so by 'hand selecting' small amounts of choice timber from individuals all over the nation. To deal with the 'by-products' they also made 'pallet factories' in order to make a little extra profit from the 'scrap' cuts of lumber.

A couple of generations later, the youngsters got the idea that the old farts collecting and providing the 'top notch' trees for milling were 'outdated and in the way'.

Thinking 'scrap lumber is cheap', and that 'commercial farms' are the only viable places to go hunt for harvestable trees, they sold their old 'antiquated' saw mills, fired all the founders who knew the real money was in picking the best trees and providing premium board-feet, while accusing them of being archaic, greedy, and short sighted.

Less than 10 years later, they found they no longer had an internal source for scrap wood to make their pallets. So many 'young factories' had joined forces and created a DEMAND for so called 'scrap lumber'. The 'mill scraps' became almost as valuable and expensive as the prime choice board-feet! Lack of affordable raw resources put the majority of such factories OUT OF BUSINESS.

This is SOFTWARE....your number one strategic asset is your KNOWLEDGE and your active user base (who provides a significant chunk of that knowledge). Don't put your primary strategic assets into some third party's hands just because you 'think' it might save a dollar in the short term.

Keep control of your data....and your userbase! You worked hard to build it.....it'd be foolish to give that much POWER over to third parties who can change the rules on you at a moments notice!

As for the link to the 'new in house message board'. It seems like a pretty big step backwards. I can see how it might be a little better for 'mobile devices', but currently the bulk of MM products are NOT mobile-centric. We need 'workstations' to run this stuff, so it would make more sense to keep fully featured, viable, professional looking, and efficent 'workstation-centric' message boards.

Also consider that a massive chuck of the Finale user base does not personally own a 'user key' or get access to a 'product account'. Professors and students who use this stuff in offices and learning labs around the world need to be able to create Forum accounts and seek community help without having a full fledge MM product account. If we educators lose such benefits, there's not much reason left to remain devoted to Finale as the 'training ground' for the next generation of Notation users/creators.

Post Edited (Credo) : 12/2/2016 5:15:11 PM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Zoots - 12/2/2016 10:12 AM

Overall, I agree with what has been said.

Mike Rosen has listed some obvious major deficiencies in the Zendesk software which may or may not be easily corrected. I get the impression that Zendesk provides the environment and it is not a highly "tailored for customer" product but rather a one-size fits all.

A point that has not been stated in this discussion is that the quality of the forum heavily depends on the participants. Would the Zendesk forum answers be so shallow if all of the members of this forum participated on it?

Being a weak Finale user, I recently found myself Googling some "How Do I" questions and most answers that came up (and frequently were useful) were from the forum in Mike Rosen's link.

My feeling right now is that I would like to hear from MM what they are going to do about fixing the deficiencies in the Zendesk forum. I would also like some assurance that it would indeed be monitored by Finale staff. If these aren't forthcoming immediately, then I think we should move en masse to the one in Mike's link to ensure a critical mass of Finale knowledge from the many years of experience many of you have remains in play.

I do not use Facebook, Twitter or other similar applications.

Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

Posted By : sandalwood - 12/2/2016 10:45 AM

I humbly think this forum is a significant part of what Finale as a working tool is worth. It is a soothing reassurance that any problem encountered while using Finale, regardless of how elementary, general or advanced, specific it is, will be provided with the best available solution. When no solution yet exists it is able to provide an almost equally valuable clarification in defining and mapping the problem and on where we currently stand as to solving it.

Also a great source on notation issues and an invaluable bulletin on similar programs, DAWs, etc. ...and a great feeling of a community formed over the years with civilized, expert people on board. Terminating this forum would certainly not help me stay with Finale.

Please reconsider your decision.

Finale 2014.5, Notion 5, GPO5, Miroslav Philharmonik
W10, i7

Posted By : jange - 12/2/2016 11:35 AM

Just to make sure that everybody got it right:

- they are not deleting this forum, so all threads will still be there -> they are just locking it, so no new threads can be added
- they are not removing every Finale forum -> they are just changing their main platform, so you don't need to change to Facebook, Finaleforum, etc.

If this is change cannot be undone, it would make sense to make it as easy as possible for everybody and to emphasize on the positive aspects of the change. Losing features and knowledge (or making it more difficult to retrieve old knowledge) is not acceptable if it could be solved easily.

Some suggestions to MakeMusic:
- migrate the old dotNetBB forum to Zendesk (i.e. migrate all messages to the new system), so that we only need to search in one forum and that everybody can find his own (old) contributions, username, profile photo, etc. in the new system
- also migrate the old helpdesk to Zendesk, so that we have still access to our old technical requests (I regularly looked into my old helpdesk entries looking for the solution - now they are all gone...)
- add missing features to Zendesk (with its API you can adjust the system)
- improve the design! It looks very overloaded and clumsy
- don't forget the social aspect in forums: names, number of posts, post history, profile info, communicating with other users are very important aspects in forums and building a long-lasting community. If everything is lost and has to be rebuilt, you will lose many active users.
- simply make it a pleasant change ... if it looks and feels good, everybody will participate in it.

Finally, what is the advantage of the new Zendesk system ?
MakeMusic can have all customer relations in one database, so for example all technical requests and forum entries are connected with the same account.

Jan

Elbsound.studio

Post Edited (jange) : 12/2/2016 10:39:04 AM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Ron. - 12/2/2016 1:35 PM

That's all fine and good Jan, but I will not move to the new amateurish forum. It has proven over the last several months that it does not work, and that MakeMusic will be losing the expertise of many long-time users who have been an invaluable resource for the company for many many years.

Finale 25.1

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : jange - 12/2/2016 1:44 PM

I will not be moving either (although I am mostly active on Facebook anyway) if the new forum remains that way.
That's why I made some suggestions what needs to be improved.

Jan

Elbsound.studio

Posted By : poparad - 12/2/2016 3:54 PM

Wow, talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

I used to actively participate in the Harmony Central forums (I was/am a moderator there), and when Guitar Center bought them up about 10 years ago, they had the brilliant idea to move to a new forum software/format, not unlike what is linked at the top of this thread. Within a couple of months, a forum that was one of the top 10 ranked forums on the internet saw its user base nearly vanish. The users were all very vocal in expressing their concerns over the move, but they were completely ignored because the higher-ups supposedly knew best. Today, Harmony Central has almost no daily activity. The forum I moderated, has had fewer than 20 posts in all 2016. It used to get twice that daily.

This forum is a great resource that I have returned to time and time again for assistance from a very knowledgeable and helpful community. Communities like this are a fragile thing, and if they are seriously disrupted by something as foolhardy as shutting down an active and engaged forum like this, they will be decimated and never again return to their prior robustness.

Posted By : Andreo Basisto - 12/2/2016 5:55 PM

I, too, am deeply shocked that MM can consider closing this wonderful Forum. I have learnt so much over the years from Zuill and many others and have occasionally even offered the odd solution myself.

I urge MM to rethink things to allow me and countless others to keep in contact with the collective wisdom found on this Forum!

Andreo Basisto

Finale 3.1, 98, 2000, 2011b

Win 10 (64 bit)

Posted By : Credo - 12/2/2016 6:04 PM

poparad said...
Wow, talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

I used to actively participate in the Harmony Central forums (I was/am a moderator there), and when Guitar Center bought them up about 10 years ago, they had the brilliant idea to move to a new forum software/format, not unlike what is linked at the top of this thread. Within a couple of months, a forum that was one of the top 10 ranked forums on the internet saw its user base nearly vanish. The users were all very vocal in expressing their concerns over the move, but they were completely ignored because the higher-ups supposedly knew best. Today, Harmony Central has almost no daily activity. The forum I moderated, has had fewer than 20 posts in all 2016. It used to get twice that daily.

This forum is a great resource that I have returned to time and time again for assistance from a very knowledgeable and helpful community. Communities like this are a fragile thing, and if they are seriously disrupted by something as foolhardy as shutting down an active and engaged forum like this, they will be decimated and never again return to their prior robustness.

+1 for poparad's post!

Forum accounts for user communities really need to remain separate from the main Product Account(s) too!
Case in point: Studio Workshops, School/University Students, etc. Many people get 'training' and 'exposure' in products like Finale, and some even use it every day in work-places and NEVER get (nor should they) access to the 'product account(s)'.

Posted By : Writer of Music - 12/3/2016 6:54 AM

And at the end of the day MakeMusic will go ahead with the move, we will all migrate to the new forum and by the end the week all of us will have forgotten what the fuzz was about. And when push comes to shove we all want/need a place to gather and share knowledge on the software that we (have to) use, so we will go find it in the bowels of a dead cow if necessary. Corporations know that and couldn't care less what customers wish or want. Customers are but dogxxxx on the shareholder's shoe after all.

Now let's all shut up and pay our annual upgrade fees for unsolved bugs and unwanted 'new features'.

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Posted By : Ron. - 12/3/2016 8:06 AM

What is going to happen to all our private messages when this forum is shut down? I have some exchanges saved that are very meaningful to me.

Finale 25.1

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : bpalm - 12/3/2016 11:45 AM

How can you edit a profile photo on the new forum? It won't let me it says it's "automatically" set, and I can't change it. Why?
"The name, profile photo, phone, and email are set automatically. You can't change them here."

Adam W. said...
These forums were originally created to provide a way for our passionate Finale users to share ideas, provide valuable input, and find answers from our community. A number of other great public forums for discussion about our products and best practices have become available since this platform first began. These include Facebook, SHSU, Twitter, Yahoo and various other forums and blogs. Also, as many of you know, the release of our new Help Center over the summer provides another avenue for discussion and input.

In an effort to provide a centralized, accessible, and most of all, helpful community for all of our customers, we are focusing our resources on the new forums in our Help Center Community. As of January 1st, 2017, we will only monitor and support these new forums. At that time these existing forums will be locked.

We want this large body of valuable information to remain available, so while these forums will be locked at the end of the year, they will be archived so that they can still be accessed by those looking for any of the helpful historical information located here.

We want to thank you for the value you’ve already provided to MakeMusic and its customers in these forums, and we look forward to seeing you in our new Help Center Community!

Best,

Adam Wig
Director, Customer Success

Michael Johnson
Vice President, Professional Notation

Fred Flowerday,
Senior Vice President, Product Strategy

Posted By : weeksc - 12/3/2016 2:20 PM

Count me out as well. I will NOT be moving to the new forum, nor will I send my students and customers there for help.

It's a shame...

--Clancy

Finale 2014.5
Microsoft Surface Pro 3, i5 256
Windows 10 Pro Anniversary Edition
___________________________

I never claimed to know everything... I'm just right about the things I know!

Posted By : Ron. - 12/3/2016 3:44 PM

Good point, Clancy. I've been sending people from my forum (composeforums.com) to here, as well as folks from the FaceBook Finale Powerusers group. You can be certain that I will not send them to MM's new forum. It just makes everyone involved with Finale look like a bunch of amateurs.

Finale 25.1

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Writer of Music - 12/4/2016 8:52 AM

Ron. said...
It just makes everyone involved with Finale look like a bunch of amateurs.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck …

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Posted By : Gareth Green - 12/5/2016 7:22 PM

Seems to me that the fact that none of the signatories to the original post have seen fit to come on this forum and respond to the outpouring of dissatisfaction tells us everything we need to know ...

Gareth J. Green

Fin25
Windows 10 (under duress ... )

Posted By : Sunshine7 - 12/5/2016 8:29 PM

This is kind of sad. This has worked well and I've been involved in many -- some music, some professional. I will hope for the best. but.......

In the mountains

Finale 2012 (recently)

Sonar X1 Essential

Windows 7

Posted By : David Sosnowski - 12/5/2016 9:41 PM

One of the consequences of closing this forum will inevitably be an avalanche of support requests. I wonder if that has been considered. I can't even count the number of times I've consulted this forum for help -- and each of those meant one less support request to MakeMusic staff.

David Sosnowski

www.DavidSosnowski.com

Posted By : Ron. - 12/5/2016 10:45 PM

I have had to refer users to the support forums, complete with URLs, more times than I can count. People can't find them on their own, or don't know what to look for. Without we users referring novices to the right places, they will just give up.

Finale 25.1

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : SysExJohn - 12/6/2016 4:50 AM

It's possible that we are all thinking incorrectly here!

This is clearly a decision made by MM management.
The addition of the names of senior signatories to the announcement would indicate this.

"HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE DECISIONS OF SENIOR MANAGEMENT?
Don't you know it's always for the best.
We always know better than you do.
It is our jobs that are important, and our advancement and salaries and bonuses, not your silly software and your stupid user groups.
Thinks: (How pathetic are you?)
If it doesn't work we'll just move on.
You can please yourselves what you do, as long as we're okay.
So, just pull yourselves together and commit to the decisions we have made in our, excuse me, your best interests."

Almost a direct quotation from ICL senior management in the past.

The decision has been made.
Senior management, in my experience, will rarely reverse such a decision.
It would call into question their ability to manage.

Heaven forfend that they would admit to a mistake.

Deeply cynical? Me?

John Garside.

at MIDI-tutor.proboards.com

Finale 2012c, Sonar 7 PE, XGworks.
Garritan GPO4, JABB, COMB, IO, Organs, Steinway, Harps + GPO5.
E-MU 1616m PCI and Cardbus x 2.
Yamaha AN1x.

Posted By : Nowikjoh - 12/6/2016 9:45 AM

Although I am not a frequent contributor, commentator - I come to this forum frequently to find quick answers to a problem I am having.
Usually, I find it - although the Search Engine function has become useless for Posts past 6 months. I am glad I have saved URL links to posts from previous years. The people on these forums, with their knowledge, have been invaluable and have made FINALE'S inner worth far greater than its price.
I have tried to use the new MM forum site and found it to be lacking in ANYTHING I was looking for.

Disappointed come January 2017.

John, NJ

Home: Finale 2008, Finale 2009, GPO, Kontackt Player 2.0

Dell XPS laptop, Windows XP, service pack 3

Pentium 4 / 3.4 Ghz

2.00 GB RAM

and at school:

Finale 2008, Finale2011

Lenovo ThinkCentre M58, Windows 7 Enterprise, 32-bit

Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, 3.16ghz

4.00 GB RAM

Posted By : michelp - 12/6/2016 10:02 AM

If you want your opinion to be heard (hopefully !), please participate in the poll : forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=489440.

Michel
Finale 25.1, 2014.5, 2012c (main), MacOsX 10.11.6, Mac Mini Intel i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express.

Posted By : Zuill - 12/6/2016 10:07 AM

Regarding senior management, remember what happened with the Scanning feature (now removed). It took only one complaint to reverse that decision, after a blog post touting it, and now it is gone.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Adam W. - 12/6/2016 4:17 PM

Hi Everyone,

Some of the functionality requests mentioned previously do exist in the new platform, so I'll take a moment to outline those features:

- Ability to add/edit a user profile: While the capability is not as robust, there is a 'Description' field that can be edited to include any personal information you'd like. This can be accomplished by navigating to 'My Profile': http://www.screencast.com/t/8QNZ6rWiC and then selecting 'Edit Profile'. You'll see your description information listed beneath your name: http://screencast.com/t/dhQifiyf0a

- Easily spot your own contributions: You'll find a list of your contributions (public community posts) and any previous support tickets listed in the 'My Profile' section.

- Searching on a poster's name: While you can't do a direct search for a posters name, we'll be enabling the ability to view another user's profile. This will include the ability to see their previous public posts and even subscribe to be notified wen they've made a new post.

- Getting a newly updated thread back to the top of the list in order to maintain relevancy: While the new platform doesn't explicitly do this, we will be enabling the ability to follow a specific thread so that you can be notified when an update is made.

I recognize that there are many other specific pieces of functionality not listed above that are important to this group. While the new community doesn't currently offer each feature requested so far, it's my goal to continually improve the interface to make it a worthwhile tool for you. Realistically, a portion of that progress is dependent upon feature development by ZenDesk itself and we'll continue to push them to widen the breadth of their options as well.

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/6/2016 4:20 PM

In other words, then, you don't care about the concerns of the professionals on the forum.

You guys just don't get it, do you?

Posted By : Zuill - 12/6/2016 4:25 PM

Adam,

I have a feeling we are looking past each other. Is that the case?

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Motet - 12/6/2016 4:28 PM

Is there a way in the new forums to easily see what's new each visit? Does it remember what each user has seen? Not only where I've posted, but in general. We do that all the time here, trawling for problems to help with. Topics with newest postings should be listed first.

The email notifications are a nuisance to me, so are no solution.

Lack of attachments is a big problem. We do that here all the time. Relying on users' off-site storage won't work, because such links usually break over time.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/6/2016 3:43:43 PM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Zuill - 12/6/2016 4:43 PM

It's interesting that Finale has an option to "improve" the program by giving feedback directly. If the result we are getting here is completely trashing a viable and valuable exchange of Finale information, regardless of our feedback, why should we go through the hoops of sending feedback via the program? Is that too just for appearance sake, with the knowledge that things will be done with total disregard for user experience? I'm baffled. Maybe I need a logical explanation.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Zuill - 12/6/2016 4:45 PM

I forgot another question: if a user on the new forum is banned for whatever reason, is the method used deleting the user account? If so, how would a user have access to the paid for products and support? Just wondering.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Gareth Green - 12/6/2016 6:54 PM

I'm starting to wonder whether Adam and his colleagues might possibly have been ostriches in a previous existence ... ?

Gareth J. Green

Fin25
Windows 10 (under duress ... )

Posted By : Michael Johnson - 12/6/2016 7:19 PM

Greetings all:

Thank you for sharing your concerns with us. I wanted to chime in with my thoughts. A group of us at MakeMusic thought long and hard about the best way to serve our users. I appreciate your concerns that the ZenDesk Community is not this forum. As Adam noted, we will make as many changes to Community as quickly as possible and we will advocate to Zendesk to enhance their tool set. I also want to affirm that we are only locking this forum, we are not removing accessibility. The rich set of answers and discussion will remain as a resource.

I also appreciate many of you, myself included, coming to these forums for a sense of community about all things Finale. While only time will tell, I can assure you we are committed to fostering that same sense of community in the "Community" portal. I realize these are empty words but I sincerely look forward to you joining me in our new Help Center Community.

Change and Adapt. This has become a motto of our company as we became part of Peaksware. When I started at MakeMusic in 1996, the only forums available were from AOL and Compuserve. Shortly thereafter it was determined that we would no longer support those services. I recall a rather large outcry, similar to this, of the AOL and Compuserve communities at the time. But change and adapt we did. Of course, there was no Facebook, or Yahoo, or Google, or Twitter, or ZenDesk and our documentation was 3 purple books back then. So, we provided as best we could a neutral forum, this forum. Times have changed and as difficult as it is for all of us, we need to change and adapt.

I agree that the Finale community is a great asset and, in this day and age when you have so many choices to pick your notation toolset, the fact that you continue to use Finale is both humbling and inspiring. We all want Finale to be better and change quicker and have every feature all of you have dreamed up. Maybe someday it will, in the meantime, we will keep making small changes, releasing updates with bug fixes, and implementing new features: allowing Finale to become better, faster, and easier to use. It is absolutely your free market right to choose whether to participate. Thank you for doing so.

Thank you for your time, your energy, your feedback (yes! we listen), your ideas, and most of all your musicianship. For in the end, we all want to Make Music. "Here's hoping that Finale enhances your musical productivity and creativity in ways you've never imagined possible."

Sincerely,
Michael Johnson
Vice President, Professional Notation

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Posted By : Motet - 12/6/2016 7:24 PM

What is the hurry? Please leave this one open until Zendesk is up to snuff.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : Writer of Music - 12/7/2016 11:06 AM

Michael Johnson said...
A group of us at MakeMusic thought long and hard about the best way to serve our users.

Either the group was too small, or you didn't think long and hard enough. Because closing this forum couldn't be farthest from 'serving' your customers.

Keeping this forum open but deactivated is of very little use, because it is an ordeal to search this forum as it is and therefor hardly a 'resource' of answers of any value whatsoever.

The point is not the loss of a 'sense of community', but of a resource of knowledge and experience that MakeMusic never has and never will be able to provide. As helpful and probably knowledgeable your help centre may be, they cannot and never will match the knowledge, experience, success in help and helpfulness of a number of long time users, copyists, musicologists, musicians, composers as is gathered here.

'Change and adapt' may well be your company motto, but why do you enforce that on your customer — you'll remember: the one who buys your stuff and thus puts bread on your table. Shouldn't you adapt and change when your customer demands that from you? But no, instead you force the customer to adapt and change.

And last but by no means least: please don't say that you listen when you should say that you hear. To listen suggests that you do something with what you hear. Do you? No, your path was set and regardless of what you hear, your path remains unchanged.

In short, nice speech, mr. Johnson, but your quasi empathic words did not earn you a cigar.

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 12/7/2016 1:18 PM

Well I guess most here are at the point where we will leave these forums behind, MM's attempt at further control is a failure but they are to blind to see. Maybe somewhat related to the current election in the US..... those insulated from what the common electorate (user base) needed or even wanted. Insulated with their corporate speak and hive mind, and failing to even ask themselves whether at this time with features that are needed but lacking with Zendesk that they should put off the change until those issues are rectified.

Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, Version 25.1; TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.5.0, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, Notion 5 (Notion 5 not really any better than 4, [Notion 6 (bought but not installed)]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), 2@ Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

Posted By : BvdPress - 12/7/2016 1:46 PM

Michael Johnson said...
I realize these are empty words...

This partial sentence says it all for me.

A VERY loyal user base is offering you feedback and telling you they do not want change, but alas the company is once again ignoring that base. And by ignoring I mean LOUDLY saying we don't care what you think. It is very clear to me that MakeMusic does not think this Forum is worth anything to the company.

Guess what? Some of us recommend Finale not just because of the product but because of this forum as well. The forum offers a way for the loyal base as well newcomers to exchange ideas and get help, but even more it allows users to get help WITHOUT inundating the MakeMusic call center each and every day. It is actually one of the better selling points of the product past the notation.

I would urge the "group" at MakeMusic to take another look at this Forum. If nothing else, delay until the new version is in much better shape.

As for "Change and Adapt", please apply to this decision. You made a decision now "Change and Adapt" to what your base is telling you.

Michael Johnson said...
(yes! we listen)

Could have fooled me...after 20+ years of using Finale this company once again is proving it is tone deaf.

Oh well. Back to work using Finale.

Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
bvdpress@gmail.com
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

Post Edited (BvdPress) : 12/7/2016 1:27:10 PM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Zuill - 12/7/2016 1:58 PM

I agree with that last statement. If the scan app change could be reversed, then so could this.

One can get some good entertainment by reading the new forum. It gives me a chuckle now and then when I force myself to see if there might be anything of value there. iI's quite full of beginner questions and little of substantial discourse.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/7/2016 7:13 PM

Zuill said...
I agree with that last statement. If the scan app change could be reversed, then so could this.

One can get some good entertainment by reading the new forum. It gives me a chuckle now and then when I force myself to see if there might be anything of value there. iI's quite full of beginner questions and little of substantial discourse.

Zuill

Has the scan debacle been reversed? Did I miss something?

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/7/2016 7:24 PM

Writer of Music said...

Michael Johnson said...
A group of us at MakeMusic thought long and hard about the best way to serve our users.

Either the group was too small, or you didn't think long and hard enough. Because closing this forum couldn't be farthest from 'serving' your customers.

<snip>

'Change and adapt' may well be your company motto, but why do you enforce that on your customer — you'll remember: the one who buys your stuff and thus puts bread on your table. Shouldn't you adapt and change when your customer demands that from you? But no, instead you force the customer to adapt and change.

The forum is a MAJOR selling point, because gathered in a single place are people of vast experience as engravers, teachers, composers, and musicians.

If MM forces all of these people to "change and adapt" I can easily see many of them changing and adapting to some other software which appears to offer considerably more RESPECT for its clientele and a vested interest in amassing the best and brightest around its product.

Upgrade the forum, sure. it's way past due.
But the "new forum" MM is offering us is pure shi*. it has 0 functionality, and is missing just about every attribute that makes this forum so valuable.

A MM employee even had the nerve to respond here saying that the new forum could do all the same things... more or less... except for a few exceptions... which includes pretty much everything that the user base requires of a Finale forum. In other words, with a few weasel words a MM employee admitted that the new forum is pointless and useless.

As was wisely said: MakeMusic, you may be "hearing", but you are NOT "listening".

Posted By : Zuill - 12/7/2016 11:26 PM

The scan app reversal was that they said they would have it, then they abruptly removed it. That is a reversal.

And, we might as well fold. It appears that things are set in stone. Interesting business paradigm, but the one chosen, nonetheless.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.1

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : N. Grossingink - 12/8/2016 7:10 PM

There is another thing about the new Community Forum that's a bit disconcerting.

Whenever a question is answered, the forum moderator apparently can tag the topic "ANSWERED", which locks the topic preventing further discussion. Not really helpful if you want to mention an alternate technique, word of caution, use of plugin, etc., etc.

N.

OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

Posted By : Writer of Music - 12/9/2016 10:47 AM

N. Grossingink said...
There is another thing about the new Community Forum that's a bit disconcerting.

Whenever a question is answered, the forum moderator apparently can tag the topic "ANSWERED", which locks the topic preventing further discussion. Not really helpful if you want to mention an alternate technique, word of caution, use of plugin, etc., etc.

N.

Exactly! And aren't precisely the discussions and the alternative solutions what makes this community so valuable? And aren't the best ideas and proposals for improvements, additional features and enhancements the result of many such discussions? Don't find many third party plugins their origin in what was discussed and suggested right here, in this community?

Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Posted By : Michael Johnson - 12/10/2016 10:02 AM

Hi All:

Thank you for the comments and feedback thus far. The Finale community is a wonderful asset and I look forward to discussions, suggestions, ideas, and solutions about all things Finale and music notation with everyone in the new community.
Additionally, people learn differently. We offer Quickstart videos, user manuals, and knowledge base articles in addition to the community and the case system. None of this is going away from our Help Center (Centre) and we are certainly always working to improve each of those resources.

Thank you again for your feedback.

Cheers,

Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Surface 4
Win 10

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/10/2016 10:35 AM

(Shakes head...)

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/10/2016 10:37 AM

translation

Michael Johnson said...
Hi All:

Thank-you for wasting your time telling us about your needs. We want to take advantage of the Finale community, but on OUR terms, so we're still going to push you to go to the new pointless forum, because we have decided what is best for you. Actually, we've decided what is best for us by ignoring what is actually best for you.

Additionally, no matter the mounds of evidence to the contrary, we believe something blindly enough to damage this community to satisfy our pig-headed need to "do something new", because our incompetent designers would rather distract you from the numerous as-yet unrepaired bugs in Finale with a pointless and uncalled for forum move.

I'll just continue pretending that your feedback actually means something to us.

Cheers,

Posted By : Ron. - 12/10/2016 10:41 AM

They just don't get it. I, and many other experienced users who have been supporting this community for decades, are not going to the new forum. Period. End of story. You've lost, MakeMusic, more than you seem to realize.

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Zoots - 12/10/2016 11:14 AM

It's time to face the music (or reality). MM is not keeping this forum alive and it is gong to get locked.

Members have listed various deficiencies in the new Zendesk forum which indeed make it less than desirable but it is where MM is going to do whatever monitoring and answering. The issue is where do the dissatisfied members move. Go to another forum which do exist or move to the new MM forum and try to work within it to get it improved. I notice that there are already some very familiar names participating on that forum.

I emphasize that it is the members, not the forum software, that makes the community and the quality of answers. It would be a shame if a critical mass of the very knowledgeable users on this forum were seriously fragmented with some going here and some going there. When I last looked there were about 75 responses to the poll about keeping this forum open. That may well represent about 74 very knowledgeable users but it probably is a small drop in the Finale users bucket.

I think I'm going to try living in the new forum and complain from within. I'm not a very knowledgeable user which is why the number is 74, not 75 above :). While a "screw you MM" is my thought, I also see no benefit in shooting near my feet.

Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/10/2016 11:25 AM

Zoots,

I see you on the SmartScore forum, where you are a valued contributor. That forum has (I think) all the features that the members here, want. MM has made a bad choice, not necessarily in moving the forum, but in their choice of a replacement.

I'll look for you to join us at finaleforum.com!

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/10/2016 11:27 AM

Michael Johnson said...
Hi All:

Thank you for the comments and feedback thus far. The Finale community is a wonderful asset and I look forward to discussions, suggestions, ideas, and solutions about all things Finale and music notation with everyone in the new community.

You can look all you want. But you ain't gonna see it.

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/10/2016 11:32 AM

And unless I missed it, there is no way to send a PM on the new forum. Just another reason not to use it.

Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 12/10/2016 11:35 AM

Ron. said...
They just don't get it..................

They just don't care.

If they really heard what we said they would repeat each and every item and then tell us why with that understanding that this needs to be completed at this point without Zendesk having a fuller feature set to facilitate interactions.

Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, Version 25.2; TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.5.0, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, Notion 5 (Notion 5 not really any better than 4, [Notion 6 (bought but not installed)]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), 2@ Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

Posted By : Zoots - 12/10/2016 4:07 PM

Mike Rosen said...
Zoots,

I see you on the SmartScore forum, where you are a valued contributor. That forum has (I think) all the features that the members here, want. MM has made a bad choice, not necessarily in moving the forum, but in their choice of a replacement.

I'll look for you to join us at finaleforum.com!

How can I refuse a kind invitation like that!
I am now registered on finaleforum.com and look forward to seeing everybody there.

Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/10/2016 4:18 PM

I am now registered on Finale Forum as well.

Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 12/10/2016 4:55 PM

Thanks Peter and Mike.....joined in 2014 but never used as this current forum was more useful to my purposes. But by the end of December when MM finally locks this site I'll be on http://www.finaleforum.com/index.php?sid=a67294fb7e7dcca8bd3fd8b5238927c8

Posted By : Zuill - 12/10/2016 5:03 PM

I guess MakeMusic has succeeded in their plan (to drive users away). Remember when Coca-Cola changed their formula, then had to bring Classic Coke back? (Maybe I'm dating myself.) Sometimes things just don't go as planned in the business world. I am guessing they were actually hoping to lose some of us "pot-stirrers". How will they know about the things needing fixing?

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 12/10/2016 4:09:27 PM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Ron. - 12/10/2016 5:08 PM

The one drawback to this forum is that there is no "like" button, because I would definitely use for Zuill's last comment. :)

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/10/2016 6:35 PM

Zuill said...
I guess MakeMusic has succeeded in their plan (to drive users away). Remember when Coca-Cola changed their formula, then had to bring Classic Coke back? (Maybe I'm dating myself.) Sometimes things just don't go as planned in the business world. I am guessing they were actually hoping to lose some of us "pot-stirrers". How will they know about the things needing fixing?

Zuill

If you date yourself, who picks up the check?

But nothing needs fixing. Just ask "customer success."

Posted By : Derrek - 12/11/2016 12:09 PM

When I Google Zendesk, I see a Customer Relations Management software company. My guess is that MM bought the product to track their support calls and that Zendesk then sold them on integrating the whole operation with their cool nifty forum add-on. Perhaps this fits in with MM's SmartMusic clientele, but it is really designed for the company's convenience at the (considerable) expense of the user community.

If MM is committed to Zendesk, for heaven's sake make the user interface more user friendly. I shouldn't have to open a dozen messages to discover which I've seen (several times) before. (The most recent post pulldown has to be pulled down every time I return to the TOC, meaning multiple clicks and drags just to find messages with updated comments.) And spamming my e-mail with update notifications is an intrusion: I don't break off dealing with e-mail to chase some MM squirrel through the Zendesk maze. What kind of idiot design the Zendesk user interface? Clearly no one who ever expected to use it frequently form teh user's side.

Posted By : Motet - 12/11/2016 12:39 PM

I think the new forums were envisioned from the perspective of someone needing help--you post a question, then someone answers it you get email. What was not envisioned was a community of users providing the help. To accommodate them the software needs to remember which postings they've seen from visit to visit and to make it easy to see only what's new and to easily revisit a thread they've recently read and or posted in.

Then, as I just posted elsewhere, there's the question of attachments. Yes, one could post a link to something offsite, but the percentage of people who have such storage and the knowledge to do it is likely small. Plus, they're likely to delete the files once the discussion is over. I have posted hundreds of examples here over the years; I can't imagine maintaining that if they were in my own space.

A typical scenario here is someone has a mysterious problem, and the only way of getting to the bottom of it is for them to post their file. In the new forums that might go, "Huh? How do I do that? What's Dropbox? I have to sign up for that? Am I going to get spammed? OK, I created a Dropbox account, now what? OK, I uploaded it there, now what? OK, here's the link--oh, it doesn't work? Let me try again." I just don't see it working.

The forum lets you upload images. It shouldn't be hard to extend that to other attachments. But the navigation issues Derrek mentions are an equally big problem, more than just changing the size of the borders, as someone above promised.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/11/2016 1:17:19 PM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Zuill - 12/11/2016 3:52 PM

Seriously, I believe they are trying to run the whole thing into the ground. The serious users will be migrating to other forums, and what's left? The blind leading the blind.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Derrek - 12/11/2016 6:48 PM

I do not question the company's intentions. I just think they have made a terrible decision and chosen a product unsuitable for serving their customers.

Posted By : CraigP - 12/13/2016 11:26 PM

I have a dumb question.

If Finale didn't want to keep using the old forum, which has plenty of limitations of its own, why didn't they simply choose a modern software solution that is actually designed to serve and cultivate a user community? Don't they want to cultivate a user community? There are a bunch out there:
http://www.quertime.com/article/15-best-online-forum-platforms-software-free-and-paid/

And I agree the new forum is just strange. It doesn't feel like a forum or a trouble ticket system. What is it? Why does it even exist? I am having trouble understanding what anyone would ever use that software for.

This is like picking Finale if you need a MIDI editor. Yeah, I guess you can kinda make that work. But who would want to? As a person who often depends on the help of others here, it becomes a big problem if the new forum is too tedious for those users to hang around.

Posted By : HaraldS - 12/14/2016 7:47 AM

CraigP said...
Don't they want to cultivate a user community?

Obviously no. Finale users aren't primarily recognized by MM as musicians who could help each other in a productive environment, but (according to the department's name) are recognized as customers who could have success.

CraigP said...
Why does it even exist?

Well, good question. It doesn't have the necessary features and thus is not a step forwards. It could be so easy, the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly. Instead, MM doesn't listen to the user's needs and a working composer's reality. In politics, we call that "post-factual" politics. Ironically, the german word "postfaktisch" was elected for "Word of the year 2016" just five days ago.

Harald

Finale 3.0-2014.5, german edition, Windows 7
mostly hardware synths/keys, Cubase 7 / trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

Posted By : Motet - 12/14/2016 12:28 PM

HaraldS said...
...the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly...

If it's the same version of phpBB that finaleforum.com uses, I wouldn't say flawlessly. There's apparently no way to see only what's new to you in a thread. It will show you which threads have new postings, but you then have to hunt for your place. For all the drawbacks of the dotNetBB forum software here, they got that part right.

On another note, someone reported in the Mac forum that MM phone support is going away in January. Can someone from MakeMusic confirm? I can't say that I've used it, but I worry about the situation of authorization breaking. If for some reason that happens (I have to recover my system, say), do I have to go through the Zendesk forums to straighten it out?

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/14/2016 11:58:19 AM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Ron. - 12/14/2016 1:02 PM

Why would phone support be going away? Sometimes it's the most convenient way to get a fast fix to an urgent problem. I'm getting a very uneasy feeling about the direction MM is headed.

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Adam W. - 12/14/2016 3:56 PM

To speak to Ron's comment - We're refocusing on an improved online support experience and will be offering Finale support exclusively online beginning in the new year. The ultimate goal in making this change is to be able to offer faster turnaround times and to provide appropriate, prioritized responses based on the nature of the issue. Urgent issues like product authorization, crashing etc. are showstoppers and require immediate attention. Identifying these problems quickly via our online tools means that you get priority responses when your product isn't working like it should.

Of course, there are always going to be complex issues that can be better addressed via the phone or even a remote session. We'll be able to leverage those options as needed so that we can maintain efficiency and accuracy across the board.

Posted By : Derrek - 12/14/2016 5:50 PM

Motet said...

HaraldS said...
...the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly...

If it's the same version of phpBB that finaleforum.com uses, I wouldn't say flawlessly.

It's easy enough to see what the Dorico Forum offers without guessing or making assumptions:

/www.steinberg.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=246&sid=155ecd8f322512a784565174aa011756&etcc_rid=1RIV4Y9M-RWJUJN&etcc_mid=129170224529&etcc_med=NLR&etcc_cmp=Program&etcc_ctv=AP%20Dorico%20Announcement%202&etcc_var=129170224529&pad=Dorico&rgn=US-EU-RoW&lan=EN

Posted By : Derrek - 12/14/2016 6:00 PM

Adam W. said...
We're refocusing on an improved online support experience and will be offering Finale support exclusively online beginning in the new year. ....

Adam, This sounds too much like a once popular national Chicken restaurant franchise near a friends house some years ago that put a sign in their window "We're moving to serve you better."
The restaurant moved out of the neighborhood: today I couldn't even find their name in a list of restaurants.

Posted By : Zuill - 12/14/2016 6:57 PM

Possibly they too moved to Boulder, CO.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : ttw - 12/14/2016 7:43 PM

The problem with online support is that I often need support (not just with Finale) when there is no line to be on.

Other sites that use Facebook are essentially useless. The Facebook site of every company that I've tried to use would never display properly on any of my computers. The only thing these companies had in common was the use of Facebook for support.

Essentially, MM is saying that (at least for me), there will be no support.

Finale 2014.5, 25
GWI, GPO4, GPO5, JABB 3, Steinway Basic, COMB2

Windows 10 Pro HP Envy Desktop
Windows 10 Home HP Portable

Posted By : Ron. - 12/14/2016 7:47 PM

They are getting rid of phone support in order to focus on improving their online response time. I tried out the new help forum when they first announced it and did not see a single MM employee respond to any requests for weeks before I gave up.

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/14/2016 7:59 PM

I got a response to an issue question, it took a few days... and it was the wrong answer.

Posted By : Motet - 12/14/2016 8:11 PM

Derrek said...

Motet said...

HaraldS said...
...the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly...

If it's the same version of phpBB that finaleforum.com uses, I wouldn't say flawlessly.

It's easy enough to see what the Dorico Forum offers without guessing or making assumptions:...

A sentence that starts with "If" is not making assumptions, but I registered there and looked. If there's a way to see only the new postings in a thread, I can't figure it out. I saw your name there, so if you know, please tell me.

It's perhaps not a deal-killer, but it's definitely a flaw.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : Ron. - 12/14/2016 10:08 PM

Motet: Is this what you are talking about?

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Motet - 12/14/2016 11:04 PM

This is probably not the place to discuss this, but you click one of those, you get a list of topics with unread or new posts, right? Then, for each topic, you can either read the whole thing, or jump to the last posting. (If it's long enough, it's broken into pages, and you can go to a page.) But there's nothing to take you to the first unread post. Or am I missing something?

Here, you can click the icon in the "last seen" column.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : Zuill - 12/14/2016 11:56 PM

So, if there is no phone support, and the new forum moves slowly regarding official response, and the standard support approach doesn't work on weekends and takes over 24 hours to get the first response, and 24 hours between responses, I think we've got trouble with a Capital T.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Ebony Ivory - 12/15/2016 4:31 AM

This is an unbelievably dumb plan. This forum is one of the main reasons some of us still use Finale amidst the many other, considerably more modern musical notation programs out there. Finale is complicated, confusing, lacks self-consistency - but we all know that within minutes of having an apparently dead-end problem, if we post it here, one of our fellow Finale users will provide the solution.

Facebook, Twitter and other social media lack the focus that this forum provides. Your amazing customer base, surely your greatest asset, will disperse, and your shareholders will hold you responsible.

Locking this forum will be the Death of Finale.

Brian

Posted By : BvdPress - 12/15/2016 9:18 AM

Adam -

Just so I am clear, as I recomend Finale a lot and mention both the phone support and this forum as a serious positive, both the phone support and this forum will be axed beginning in 2017?

As a LONG time supporter of Finale and a person that is overly critical of the product with the sole goal of getting a better product, I would ask MakeMusic to reconsider what they are doing. If the goal is drive support away for the product, GOAL ACHIEVED! And very loud and clear. Basically the customers and the base do not matter one iota to MakeMusic.

With other viable options out there, Finale had a really good thing going here (mostly because of the loyal users) and via phone support. I concur with Brian on the Death of Finale.

Ugh...

Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
bvdpress@gmail.com
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

Posted By : Ron. - 12/15/2016 10:27 AM

Let's not exaggerate the effect of killing this forum and telephone support. It will not mean the death of Finale. They will just brush that off as an over-reaction. However, it will seriously harm MM's reputation and eviscerate a very attractive feature of Finale--this forum and the rapid 24x7 response to customer problems and concerns--that costs MM nothing.

Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

Posted By : Zuill - 12/15/2016 10:38 AM

I'll bet they're closing this forum because of all the talk about Dorico. Maybe they think Dorico will go away if Finale users don't hear about it here.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Derrek - 12/15/2016 11:54 AM

Motet said...
If there's a way to see only the new postings in a thread, I can't figure it out. I saw your name there, so if you know, please tell me.

As in the diagram of a couple of entries from the Dorico Forum:

Threads are listed in order of activity, most recent at the top (except for stickies).
Unread mssgs have a red icon on the left, and clicking the orange page icon beside the subject line will take you to the unread posts in the thread.
Read posts have a blue circular icon on the left.
The date and author of the original post are beneath the subject line.
After the Replies and Views columns, the name and date/timestamp of the most recent poster is in the right column.
Signature files allow users to list the software and OS they use.

That's the kind of info and navigation help we need from the new Finale forum so that users can navigate easily and avoid wasting time, which discourages use of the forum especially by those interested in helping others.

Post Edited (Derrek) : 12/15/2016 10:57:00 AM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Motet - 12/15/2016 12:15 PM

Ah, the tiny orange page icon! OK, thanks. I don't think I would have figured that out, but perhaps I need to RTFM.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : Derrek - 12/15/2016 12:53 PM

It took me some doing to discover what some stars or scrolling icons meant in this software, and I'm not sure I could account for everything even now; but the BBS format is eminently usable.

Posted By : Bill Reed - Today 8:25 PM

They don't want to know

Finale 25, Sibelius 8.4, Notion 6, Overture 5.1, Cubase 8.5
Win10 x64, 32GB RAM
Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
Kontakt, VSL, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos
August Forster 190

Posted By : Adam W. - 12/19/2016 2:32 PM

You've all been with us for a long time and you've come to expect a high level of service from our team including phone support. This is a big change in our support model and I can tell that there's some skepticism as to how well it can work. We're fully committed to continue offering the excellent level of support you're used to. All of that being said, I understand that talk is cheap so all I can ask is that you give us the chance to prove it.

Constructive feedback about our products makes them better, and we've opened a new centralized venue for those conversations to take place. Our new community is open for all of you to make any comments and conversation you'd like!

Posted By : Motet - 12/19/2016 2:40 PM

As we've been saying, the software prevents us from making the kind of conversation we like. Have you taken any steps toward addressing that?

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/19/2016 2:43 PM

Adam W. said...
Constructive feedback about our products makes them better, and we've opened a new centralized venue for those conversations to take place. Our new community is open for all of you to make any comments and conversation you'd like!

what you seem to not be hearing, or are blatantly ignoring, is that your "new centralized venue" sucks as far as making things "better".
it's a far less efficient forum than this one, even with this one's deficiencies.

So since you've decided to go that route and ignore your user base, well, suffer the consequences.
Your new users won't have the support of long-time users as they do on this forum.
I've been using Finale since it first became available for Windows.
And I won't be switching to the "new improved" format you are ramming down our throats.

Whichever one of your employees suggested that this move would be a winner should be fired immediately, because he's an ID10T.
And before you get huffy and complain that I'm launching a personal attack on a MM employee, remember that YOU are ignoring your user base and treating us as though OUR support is not needed by you.
Remember, "your" forum depends on OUR input to make it work.
Treat us like dirt and you are going to get lots of dust trails as people migrate to other venues.
And people migrating to other venues also means considerably more exposure to alternate software, so in the long run that will translate to lost sales for MM.

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/19/2016 3:33 PM

We've done nothing but make comments. And you are flat out ignoring them.

How many times must you be told: THE NEW SYSTEM IS NO GOOD.

Posted By : Writer of Music - 12/19/2016 4:44 PM

Adam W. said...
You've all been with us for a long time and you've come to expect a high level of service …

Do you now understand how bitterly disappointed we then must be to not receive any service at all by ignoring every single syllable we utter?!?

But then again, I know you don't.

Finale 25.2
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

Posted By : nordensten - 12/19/2016 5:14 PM

Fellow Finalists...: voicing your concerns on this forum has no impact... you should try Twitter!! Peaksware will be on the case immediately...

(Finale 1.0 (1988) -> v.25) using 2012c & v.25
Cubase 8.5 Pro & Reaper - Vienna Ensemble Pro - Ircam SPAT - Hauptwerk 4 - (Overture 5) - Dorico
Libraries: VSL, Spitfire, Orchestral Tools, Xsample, Embertone, Wallander, Pianoteq, Sample Modeling, EWQL +++
Garritan Steinway - Garritan CFX pianos
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8.1/i7/32GB

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/19/2016 5:51 PM

Sorry, but I don't do Twitter. If my comments here don't reach the right people, the fault is theirs, not mine.

Posted By : HaraldS - 12/19/2016 7:07 PM

Adam W. said...
you've come to expect a high level of service from our team including phone support. This is a big change in our support model and I can tell that there's some skepticism as to how well it can work. We're fully committed to continue offering the excellent level of support you're used to.

Did I miss something, do you do support in this forum? So what has a change in the support model to do with closing this forum? If I want support, I would call the german dealer's hotline. Me and other non-US users aren't looking for support by MM here, but are happy to be a part of a powerful and knowledgeable community. Sadly, this seems to come to an end.

Harald

Finale 3.0-2014.5, german edition, Windows 7
mostly hardware synths/keys, Cubase 7 / trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

Posted By : Dan Kreider - 12/20/2016 12:59 PM

Bad move, MakeMusic. This will not help your loyal customer base.

Look, the reality is that - in the short term - very few of us will storm out in a huff, delete Finale, and dive into Dorico. We're all too deeply invested in Finale for that, some of us for decades. But these things happen over time. Dorico (for all its growing pains) is ascending. I want to see Finale ascend with it. This is a step in the opposite direction. The long-term effect will not be good.

What POSSIBLE reason could you have for closing this forum? Yes, I read the OP, and I'm still asking the question. Mike, Zulli, Motet, and scores of others can bring a diverse wealth of ideas and input that even the most competent tech team can't reproduce. Is this forum some sort of threat to MM??

I don't think you understand. This is more than just "solving tickets" (which is not being done very well at the moment, I might add). It's about a community of Finale users that each bring their ideas to the table, as well as their unique personalities. That's what a community is. If a company has produced such a community, they need to cultivate it.

You guys need to do yourselves a favor and watch the LEGO "Brickumentary." A couple years ago, LEGO was at a crossroads. Would they feel threatened by the growing community of users that were innovating, or would they embrace it? Thankfully, they chose the latter. Guess what? LEGO skyrocketed. Don't take the opposite path.

Come on. We all want to see Finale succeed!

-Dan

Finale 2014d on Windows 10
Editor at Grace Music

Posted By : Ebony Ivory - 12/20/2016 7:20 PM

Adam W. said...
You've all been with us for a long time and you've come to expect a high level of service from our team including phone support. This is a big change in our support model and I can tell that there's some skepticism as to how well it can work. We're fully committed to continue offering the excellent level of support you're used to. All of that being said, I understand that talk is cheap so all I can ask is that you give us the chance to prove it.

Constructive feedback about our products makes them better, and we've opened a new centralized venue for those conversations to take place. Our new community is open for all of you to make any comments and conversation you'd like!

This simply stinks of patronising arrogance. "[We've] all been with us for a long time", YES, we HAVE. That's what pays for YOUR job, matey. Without US, there would be NO you. And this FORUM is where we talk to and help each other. YOUR users, YOUR income source.

So stop frigging pontificating, and LISTEN to the very people who PAY YOUR SALARY. Your USERS.

Brian

Posted By : Zuill - 12/20/2016 8:22 PM

The way I look at it is: if they make the changes and the product still gets better, and their customer base increases, then we are all winners. If it backfires, they might be scrambling to get things fixed. Worst case scenario: MakeMusic goes belly-up.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : ttw - 12/20/2016 10:04 PM

Well, I really liked Encore which is supposedly being refurbished. I survived so I'll survive after Finale.

Finale 2014.5, 25
GWI, GPO4, GPO5, JABB 3, Steinway Basic, COMB2

Windows 10 Pro HP Envy Desktop
Windows 10 Home HP Portable

Posted By : Ralph L. Bowers Jr. - 12/20/2016 10:23 PM

Zuill said...
The way I look at it is: if they make the changes and the product still gets better, and their customer base increases, then we are all winners. If it backfires, they might be scrambling to get things fixed. Worst case scenario: MakeMusic goes belly-up.

Zuill

And, maybe a few that sold the company on this new pigs ear ends up getting fired. It's happened in the past.

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/20/2016 10:27 PM

Ebony Ivory said...

Hear hear!
What he said!

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/20/2016 10:32 PM

Zuill said...
Worst case scenario: MakeMusic goes belly-up.
Zuill

sadly, the "worst case scenario" has a very real, tangible effect on us.
if MM goes belly up, there will be a limited time to continue using Finale before issues pop up. no bugs will get fixed. And lots of other issues.
If I lost Finale, I'd lose years and years of work.
Then I'd have to spend a LOT of time I don't have to learn a new software package, which will take time away from my composing.

Posted By : Dan Kreider - 12/20/2016 11:34 PM

Brian: I agree that we're all frustrated by this major misstep. But I think we'd do well to keep it respectful. Personal attacks are unlikely to give our requests a better hearing.

Just my two cents. I share the feeling of general disgruntledness and bewilderment, FWIW.

Regards,
Dan

Finale 2014d on Windows 10
Editor at Grace Music

Posted By : SF - 12/20/2016 11:35 PM

WHAT???!! The idea of moving forums does not mean the company is going belly-up. I've sat back reading this until now. This forum will be here to stay, to search etc…just locked. There is a new forum…either go to it or not. Do I like it…No, but how many times have I heard that this forum is subpar.

For many, many years there was never an official Finale forum and there was just the email forum (that continues on today) which helped Tobias create TGTools and showed MM that a forum would be a good idea. Frankly I still benefit from THAT forum more than I do here. Times change…it's time to move on. It might not be perfect but it will evolve and we will all find a place…or move on but Finale will still be here.

sƒ

MPB 17" 3Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo, 8GB, 10.6.8 and 10.11.6
MacPro (mid 2010) 2.8 Ghz Qual-Core Intel Xeon, 16GB, 10.8.5, 10.11.6, 10.12 Three 27" Apple Displays
Finale 2.6.3-->25, Sib. 3.0-->7.5, Logic X, QuicKeys 4.0.7, DoubleCommand DoubleCommand, Mouse Locator Mouse Locator

Post Edited (SF) : 12/20/2016 10:39:30 PM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/20/2016 11:40 PM

Dan Kreider said...
Brian: I agree that we're all frustrated by this major misstep. But I think we'd do well to keep it respectful. Personal attacks are unlikely to give our requests a better hearing.

Just my two cents. I share the feeling of general disgruntledness and bewilderment, FWIW.

Regards,
Dan

I disagree. They have gone beyond hearing what their users say, respectful or not. Maybe it's time for all of us to say what we feel, loud and rude.

Because Godot will arrive, before they admit they made a mistake.

Posted By : Jim Coull - 12/20/2016 11:47 PM

So Mike, in addition to all your other talents & skills, you are also a fan of Becketts?

JC

Posted By : Dan Kreider - 12/20/2016 11:47 PM

Mike Rosen said...
Maybe it's time for all of us to say what we feel, loud and rude.

To what end? Catharsis?

Not trying to start an argument, as mine was a tangential comment. Just casting a vote for respectful dialog, no matter what.

Kind regards,
Dan

Finale 2014d on Windows 10
Editor at Grace Music

Posted By : Michel R. E. - 12/20/2016 11:51 PM

Dan Kreider said...
Not trying to start an argument, as mine was a tangential comment. Just casting a vote for respectful dialog, no matter what.

Kind regards,
Dan

When someone speaks down to me, it's considerably past time for "respectful dialogue".

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/21/2016 1:11 AM

Dan Kreider said...

To what end? Catharsis?

Dan

You say that as though it were a bad thing.

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/21/2016 1:13 AM

Jim Coull said...
So Mike, in addition to all your other talents & skills, you are also a fan of Becketts?

JC

Theater major in the late 60s-early 70s. I can't help it!

Posted By : Ebony Ivory - 12/21/2016 7:15 AM

ttw said...
Well, I really liked Encore which is supposedly being refurbished. I survived so I'll survive after Finale.

Encore was wonderful - and I only moved to Finale because Passport Designs went belly up, and Coda (as it was then) offered me a competitive cross-grade.

Amazing, that my entire Encore 4.11 installation (yes, I still have it so I can access my legacy pieces) takes up a grand total of 1,708,532 BYTES of disk space - oh, plus the fonts, I guess. And yet it still let me compose, arrange, print and perform music!

Oh, and I still have Finale 97 (my first version) installed, at a "whopping" (

) 13,364,949 bytes!

Brian

Posted By : Motet - 12/21/2016 11:47 AM

The encore comes after the finale, right?

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : Zuill - 12/21/2016 12:57 PM

Only if there is a standing ovation. The way I look at it, that ain't happening.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Mike Rosen - 12/21/2016 1:58 PM

"My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts."

Posted By : highlife66 - 12/23/2016 2:25 AM

Keep this forum going until the new "better" one gets the bugs fixed. This forum has been very helpful to me...

Posted By : bvstudios - 12/23/2016 2:38 AM

I've been thinking, and I think I have it.. When MM signed with the new provider, I would bet the contract included some sort of exclusivity clause, which essentially forbids the company from operating any similar product which may compete with the new item.

It's a reasonably common clause, but in most every case I've seen, it only benefits the new provider and fails both the buyer (MM) and their downstream connections (us).

Why CEO's go for it is beyond me. It's like buying a Chevy and being told that for as long as you have that Chevy, you can only operate that Chevy. You are forbidden from driving your Toyota, and by the way, no one else can, either. Because you bought the Chev, the Toyota simply has to be locked up and allowed to rot.

No one in their right mind would agree to that, but in the business world, they do it all the time.

K M Frye

Finale 2014.5, PM 2011, 2010, 2007, 2005, 2003, 2000

GPO4, WORLD, JABB3

M-Audio, Boss JS8, Roland VSC-55 Sound Canvas, Rhodes 660 workstation, Roland MC-50 composer (yeh- it's old, but it works if you can find the floppies), Reaper 4.32
Windows 7

Posted By : Ebony Ivory - 12/28/2016 8:17 AM

Of all the forums (fora?!) I use on the web, I actually like this one the best. And (apart from the people, their knowledge and the subject matter), I actually mean - the forum itself: its format, modes of use, etc.

Despite being "old tech", this forum is the clearest, the easiest to glance through to update on what's been going on, to track responses to one's own questions and comments, and so forth, of any that I use.

If MakeMusic is convinced it's no longer worth bothering with, I wonder whether they would hand the whole thing over to someone else who WOULD be willing to host, run and maintain it, for the common good?

Brian

Posted By : Zuill - 1/1/2017 10:51 AM

Let's get at least one post in this thread on this old forum in the new year.

Happy New Year!

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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