MakeMusic Forum

The original version of this page can be found at : http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=490323

Posted By : Anders Hedelin - Yesterday 10:50 AM

This is a comment that I posted on the other forum, the Zendesk one, without much response, so I'll try it here on the 'real' forum before it's too late.

I recently had a rather disheartenuing experience with one of my customers, actually an established music publisher. What happened was that he opened and made some proof-reading changes in carefully layouted musx. files I'd sent him, obviously without turning off Automatic Music Spacing. The result was that the printed and published (!) score looked simply amateurish with a lot of collisions and displacements that certainly weren't there in the files that I delivered.

My suggestion is that the option to turn on and off Automatic Music Spacing be moved from program-based Preferences to document-based Document Options - to avoid sorrows like this. (I also had mishaps myself when moving from one project to another, forgetting to turn off the function - and loosing hours of work.)

Possibly this issue has been discussed here before, but, as someone pointed out not long ago, there might be somerthing amiss with the search function, so it's difficult to know. I can just chime in with those of you who have expressed worries about the future of this truly invaluable forum!

Finale (2.0, 97, 2003, 2005) 2007, -08, -09, -11, -12, -14, 25.2
PC (2015) Windows 7, MacBook Pro (2010) OS 10.8

Post Edited (Anders Hedelin) : 12/17/2016 9:56:08 AM (GMT-6)

Posted By : N. Grossingink - Yesterday 11:06 AM

I agree completely with your suggestion!

N.

OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

Posted By : Zuill - Yesterday 12:09 PM

Until that happens (the option is given), make sure the Document options to Incorporate manual Spacing is selected, that systems are locked (in score and parts) and that you send a pdf for comparison in case this happens again.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Mike Rosen - Yesterday 12:17 PM

I have long advocated for a "leave it alone, dammit" setting.

I keep "incorporate" on all the time. I turn on automatic layout and spacing while I'm doing scroll view input, and rough page view, but I turn them both off when I get to the tweaking stage. I really wish they were doc options, rather than global.

Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

Posted By : Anders Hedelin - Yesterday 12:41 PM

Thanks for your replies!
I checked the document in question, and in the Doc Opt the music-spacing 'incorporate' option was chosen all right. But what then could have happened to the files? The printed score spoke it's sorry story for itself!

I'm not quite sure about this, but occasionally it seems that the 'incorporate' option is not 100% obliging. Anyone else had this experience?

Finale (2.0, 97, 2003, 2005) 2007, -08, -09, -11, -12, -14, 25.2
PC (2015) Windows 7, MacBook Pro (2010) OS 10.8

Posted By : N. Grossingink - Yesterday 12:58 PM

Anders Hedelin said...
I'm not quite sure about this, but occasionally it seems that the 'incorporate' option is not 100% obliging. Anyone else had this experience?

I agree! Incorporate seems sometimes to act like "Clear", clearing manual positioning rather than "Incorporating". Maybe I just don't understand the full impact of this option, but I avoid it like the plague.

N.

Posted By : Anders Hedelin - Yesterday 1:13 PM

And to Zuill, thanks again for you reply! I did lock systems and I did send pdf's but in this case it obviously didn't help. None of us are infallible it seems, neither me, music publishers nor Finale developers. We'll just have to wait to see it happen, one day.

Finale (2.0, 97, 2003, 2005) 2007, -08, -09, -11, -12, -14, 25.2
PC (2015) Windows 7, MacBook Pro (2010) OS 10.8

Posted By : Perotinus - Yesterday 1:40 PM

Even so, sometimes no matter what you do the document will reformat and lose spacing and sometimes margin locks. I still have not figured out all the variables that can cause this to happen in my own work environment, some of it may be due to my always using independent key signatures. See the following thread:

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=369246

Perotinus

Finale 2014.5
Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit

Post Edited (Perotinus) : 12/17/2016 12:43:47 PM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Anders Hedelin - Yesterday 2:24 PM

I think that the replies to this small comment of mine have shown that there really is a definite use, not to say an urgent need, for a change in the program. I only hope that Finale developers will notice this.

Something different, but not completely different, though: When I read about this change to a 'new brave' forum, one of the reasons for having the facility to vote allegedly was that Finale responsibles should have a grip on what was important. That frightens me. Instead of carefully reading, and considering posts like the ones on this forum, Finale developers would content themselves with counting the votes, and 'act accordingly'? God help us, if that's true.

Finale (2.0, 97, 2003, 2005) 2007, -08, -09, -11, -12, -14, 25.2
PC (2015) Windows 7, MacBook Pro (2010) OS 10.8

Posted By : Motet - Yesterday 2:35 PM

I suspect it's instead just a thoughtless feature inspired by the Like button on Facebook.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : Zuill - Yesterday 2:45 PM

Incorporate works for most things. However, manual adjustment of seconds, for example, gets cleared, despite using Incorporate. So, after all the note entry, uncheck seconds in the spacing options, and then manual spacing is honored.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Posted By : Vaughan - Yesterday 2:52 PM

I agree with all these comments. Automatic Music Spacing should definitely be a document setting and not a program setting. This has caused me grief a number of times, and it's also one of the many reasons I'd never give out my Finale files (except under extreme circumstances), as it's so easy for someone else to mess up one's work. Now I only turn it on when entering notes.

I would also petition to have the possibility to deactivate Automatic Update Layout removed permanently. This causes Finale to behave in a completely idiosyncratic way to [especially new] users who unwittingly turn this off, make edits, don't update the layout manually, and then can't understand why their document changes completely when saving or printing (two moments at which Finale always updates layout, regardless of the program setting). Today's computers are fast enough to make this unnecessary.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

Posted By : Perotinus - Yesterday 4:02 PM

Yet nonetheless there are times in some of the cases I mentioned above where update layout applied automatically has messed up royally some of my careful formatting. Sometimes one doesn't notice it (if it happens on another page) until long after the effect.

Perotinus

Finale 2014.5
Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit

Posted By : Motet - Yesterday 4:18 PM

What you are saying and what Vaughan says about it being applied when saving or printing seem to be at odds. Are you sure it's not Automatic Music Spacing that's the culprit?

I turn off Automatic Update Layout during music entry since it doesn't matter in Scroll View and yet nonetheless slows down large scores, then turn it on when formatting in Page View (just the opposite of Mike Rosen, apparently!). But I generally agree with Vaughan.

I admit to not fully understanding it. Can someone provide an example of where Automatic Update Layout has an unwanted effect?

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/17/2016 3:39:36 PM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Mike Rosen - Yesterday 7:28 PM

OK. I may be wrong, in this case. In my situation, it appears that Music Spacing is the culprit, not Update Layout. I will try turning that one only, off, and see what happens.

I've always treated them as a pair, not individually. But I'm willing to learn!

Posted By : Vaughan - Yesterday 7:51 PM

Other than its possibly slowing down work in larger scores, Automatic Update Layout can't possibly have an unwanted effect. Turning it off simply postpones the inevitable: Finale will still update the layout upon performing certain operations and if you haven't thought to do it manually on a very frequent basis, your score layout will change at those moments. In addition, manually updating the layout works from that point to the end of the score and not from the beginning. When Finale updates the layout itself (without your asking it to), it will do so to the entire document, with unexpected results. This has been the cause of a lot of consternation on the part of unaware users.
The independent time signature problem is, well, independent of this, as it's buggy and needs to be used with caution. Applying smart shapes, for example, can lead to unpredictable results. Sometimes working in Scroll View helps a little and I seem to remember something about its being wise to avoid having the top staff use an independent time signature, but I could be mistaken.

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

Posted By : Harpsi - Today 5:59 AM

As a precaution, I often add _autooff to the filename when I have come to that point of the project.
Anyway, I think Anders' story also might serve as an example of not letting anyone else but you change your files. I always send PDFs and any changes from proofreader or publisher should be listed and sent back to me so I can edit the finale files and send an updated corrected PDF.

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Posted By : Anders Hedelin - Today 9:11 AM

That's how I originally wanted it too, but the publisher insisted on his convenience. I think we will have to have another discussion, this time about convenience vs. quality. Old topic...

Finale (2.0, 97, 2003, 2005) 2007, -08, -09, -11, -12, -14, 25.2
PC (2015) Windows 7, MacBook Pro (2010) OS 10.8

Posted By : Vaughan - Today 9:24 AM

I agree completely with Harpsi and Anders. Not giving anyone your files is the only way to guarantee quality control. I mean, how many photographers give people their negatives?

Vaughan

Finale 3.2 - 25.1, Sibelius 4 - 7
Patterson's plugins, Tobias' plugins, full version, waiting for Jari's plugin update
MacOS 10.12
MacPro (2016) 16 GB, MacBookPro (2011) 8 GB

Amsterdam

Posted By : Anders Hedelin - Today 9:42 AM

I really liked Vaughan's comparison with photographers. What I would like to ask you, Vaughan and Harpsi, is what your customers say to that (not getting hold of the Finale files)? Do they mutter much?

Finale (2.0, 97, 2003, 2005) 2007, -08, -09, -11, -12, -14, 25.2
PC (2015) Windows 7, MacBook Pro (2010) OS 10.8

Post Edited (Anders Hedelin) : 12/18/2016 8:46:22 AM (GMT-6)

Posted By : Jetcopy - Today 10:29 AM

I have no problem with giving my files to my clients. If they need revisions in the future, they usually come back to me for it. Trust in a working relationship works both ways.

As far as photographers go, I don't know of any that use negatives anymore. Everything's digital. All they can do is put a watermark on an image. But once that image is purchased and the watermark removed, the clients can edit the image on their own if they choose.

Retina Macbook Pro OSX 10.9.5, 2.5GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, El Capitan on separate drive

Posted By : Perotinus - Today 1:55 PM

Thanks, Vaughan. I see the distinctions and the unavoidability of what you are explaining. Perhaps I, like Mike, tend to think of AUL and AMS as a pair. I will see what happens when I turn AUL on without the other.

Perotinus

Finale 2014.5
Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit

Posted By : Harpsi - Today 2:04 PM

When the clients want the finale files, I have so far accepted to provide them. So no muttering

Finale 2014.5, Win 10, Korg M1, Oxygen 25

Posted By : Motet - Today 2:06 PM

I have seen newbies here advised to turn them off because "that's what power users do," which I think does them a disservice. I agree with Vaughan about getting rid of the AUL Off button providing Finale turns it off automatically in Scroll view, where having AUL on makes no sense and only serves to slow things down. It could update the layout when switching from Scroll to Page view.

Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Posted By : OCTO. - Today 3:16 PM

forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=450703
..but there are no ears to hear.

OCTO. said...
THEREFORE: spacing should be on the measure-basis. It is entirely IMPOSSIBLE to have the same spacing (Cmd+4) in the whole piece. It doesn't make sense...

Finale 2014.5 • OS X: Yosemite, MPB 15', 16GB RAM

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