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Erik Van Geit
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   Posted 3/26/2011 3:00 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi,
 
Say you have some measures with lyrics in Staff1 which need to be put in another Staff2 .
How to do this without messing up the lyrics?
Symptoms which you can encounter in the lyrics window:
  • repeated lyrics at the end of the verse (or chorus or section) when copying music
  • missing lyrics when you delete the notes which they are attached to: EDIT: don't know if this is true: couldn't replicate this behaviour a day later
 
Currently I copy the music without lyrics from Staff1 to Staff2, then clone the lyrics from Staff1 to Staff2, then delete the notes in Staff1. This way the lyrics window stays clean.
 
kind regards,
Erik


Finale 2011 on Windows
 
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Post Edited (Erik Van Geit) : 3/28/2011 1:04:20 PM (GMT-5)

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Erik Van Geit
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   Posted 3/27/2011 5:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Nobody has problems or nobody has solutions?

Or nobody feels ready to answer :-) Or do you?



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Vaughan
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   Posted 3/27/2011 5:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm usually not bothered too much by the lyrics window behavior, certainly since the advent of 2011. I don't mind lyrics being duplicated either, especially since it means they can be individually edited. I wouldn't refer to duplicates as 'messing up the lyrics'. I tend to use different verses/choruses, etc. if I need to keep things tidy. You describe a rather convoluted process to copy music with lyrics from one staff to another. BTW, lyrics don't get deleted if you delete the notes to which they are attached. And if you have duplicate lyrics as a result of moving music to another staff, you can get rid of the original lyrics (if you don't need them anymore and you want to eliminate lyrics window clutter) by deselecting 'Subsequent Lyrics in Score Shift to the Left when Deleting a Syllable in the Lyrics Window' under Lyrics Window Options. The lyrics in your copied staff will stay put. So in answer to your questions: no, I don't have problems with this. Does this provide the solutions you were looking for?


Vaughan

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 3/28/2011 5:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The contents of my Lyrics Window can be quite chaotic. I tend to Type in Score, then Drag with Selection Filter set only to Lyrics to copy the same text and rhythm to other measures and staves.

It really doesn't matter to me.


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Erik Van Geit
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   Posted 3/28/2011 1:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan and Wiggy,
Thank you for responding.
 
(couldn't replicate the problem: deleting notes ==> delete lyrics; if I ever can, will post again)
I do care about the lyrics window, because we need exactly the same text in script and score for our musical. When exporting lyrics, they must be correct.
 
Regarding the important purpose of correct lyrics, the additional time invested to get what I want is peanuts, compared to the entire work to be done.
 
best regards,
Erik

EDIT: brings me suddendly to an idea for a plugin: "get lyrics straight from score"


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Jeanne R
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   Posted 3/28/2011 5:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Did you look under Plug-ins > Lyrics? You should find an Extract Lyrics plug-in.

I find the behavior of that Edit Lyrics box completely baffling. Is there a logic to it?

EDIT: I figured it out. But is it useful to anyone? Wouldn't a clean copy of the lyrics be better for most users most of the time?


Jeanne
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Post Edited (Jeanne R) : 3/28/2011 5:01:07 PM (GMT-5)

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Zuill
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   Posted 3/28/2011 8:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When I copy music with lyrics from one staff to another, the lyric edit window doesn't add anything. Might there be other steps you take that I can duplicate to get those results?

Zuill


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Jeanne R
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   Posted 3/28/2011 10:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
When I copy music with lyrics from one staff to another, the lyric edit window doesn't add anything. Might there be other steps you take that I can duplicate to get those results?


It doesn't add. But if you delete/replace notes and lyrics in various ways, it retains all the old info, making hash. The important principal is that the old and new syllables know which beat they were/are associated with. This is difficult to explain and I couldn't swear that I've tested it exhaustively. Focus on two beats in the middle of a passage of a few measures. I'll refer to lyrics in the manuscript vs. lyrics in storage (viewable in the Edit Lyrics window):

  • Type into score for a few measures. Storage looks fine.
  • Delete the notes on our two beats in the middle: Lyrics disappear from manuscript but remain in storage.
  • Enter new notes to replace them: Altho the old lyrics are still in storage and definitely know which beats they belong to, they don't appear in the manuscript. It doesn't matter if you are entering notes with the same rhythm.
  • Type new lyrics under the new notes using type into score: In storage, you will now have the new lyrics followed by the old lyrics embedded in all of the lyrics that have not changed. That is, all of the lyrics correspond to beats with some beats having two sets of lyrics, old and new. This is why if you change measures all over the place among multiple staves, you can end up staring at something unintelligible in storage.
  • Now delete the second set of lyrics so that you have your new notes but no lyrics under those notes in the manuscript.
  • Now choose Click Assignment from the menu. If you click on the new notes, they acquire the original lyrics.


But this is relatively clean. I then focused on Staff 1, measure 1, and dragged lyrics from Staff 2, replacing lyrics. Now those beats have two sets of lyrics but now the old lyrics are at the very top of the Edit Lyrics window (corresponding to the first measure of Staff 1) while the new lyrics are at the end of the Edit Lyrics window (after *all* lyrics of Staff 2). Still if you delete the lyrics you just dragged, then Click Assignment will restore what had been on those beats.

If you are talking about a lot of lyrics/measures/staves and a lot of dragging, it will get bad. Let's say you dragged the lyrics "one, two" from Staff 2 to Staff 1, m. 1. If you wanted to format Staff 1, m. 1, you could be forgiven for looking at the top of the Edit Lyrics window. Then you could be forgiven for looking for the first instance. But the first instance is in Staff 2 *from* which you copied. The first instance in the manuscript is, in fact, the second instance (last two words) in the Edit Lyrics window.

If you open an old file to re-use as a template, Edit > Clear *all* items, and think the lyrics are gone? Surprise! the place is haunted. (I know, you're not supposed to do this. But we do.)

I'm forced to conclude that the Edit Lyrics window was not intended as storage for a clean set of lyrics. It was intended as the source for Click Assignment -- tho that doesn't explain why it doesn't simply replace lyrics rather than storing the old set [EDIT: and certainly doesn't explain positioning in the Edit Lyrics window]. Due to technical difficulties, I'm not able to re-test the plug-in that I used a long time ago. But my recollection is that it extracted what is in the manuscript and ignores the detritus in the Edit Lyrics window. Maybe Erik or someone will confirm that.

It's an interesting and powerful idea. For me, it gets in the way (tho it's not a major concern). And a user could be forgiven for thinking s/he ought to be able to access a clean set of lyrics in the Edit Lyrics window. Among other things, this is the only way to add formatting to lyrics. The Edit Lyrics window's purpose and limitations are only implied in the Help file that I can tell. It would not be reasonable to expect any user to grasp this without more help than is available or unreasonable time spent investigating and testing.


Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3

Post Edited (Jeanne R) : 3/29/2011 9:18:53 AM (GMT-5)

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Erik Van Geit
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   Posted 3/29/2011 3:06 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

WOW! Jeanne

Thanks for those explanations: they are reflecting what a lot of us will see.

I started a thread yesterday  " plugin idea: get lyrics ".

have a nice day!

Erik


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Jeanne R
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   Posted 3/29/2011 10:22 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Erik Van Geit said...

I started a thread yesterday " plugin idea: get lyrics ".


I think you missed my earlier, shorter post. There is a plug-in under Lyrics. Check it out.


Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3

Post Edited (Jeanne R) : 3/29/2011 9:22:39 AM (GMT-5)

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Erik Van Geit
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   Posted 3/29/2011 10:38 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeanne R said...
Erik Van Geit said...

I started a thread yesterday " plugin idea: get lyrics ".


I think you missed my earlier, shorter post. There is a plug-in under Lyrics. Check it out.

Thank you for your follow up, Jeanne,
I kinda missed that, because I thought you were talking about "export lyrics"...
 
Here is your earlier post
Jeanne R said...
Did you look under Plug-ins > Lyrics? You should find an Extract Lyrics plug-in.
It's confusing for me. Under plugins > lyrics I see: "melisma" and "positioning" features. Nothing like "extract".
Can you clarify please?



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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 3/29/2011 10:50 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeanne,
I don't have that in F2010 or 2011, either.



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Jeanne R
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   Posted 3/29/2011 11:48 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You know, my Windows machine went belly-up on Sunday. It was there for sure but it's not on this MacBook. It *IS* in both the Win and Mac Help files for Finale 2008. Is there option in installation that installs most but not all plug-ins? Seems quite odd.

But now that I read that help file, it says "This plug-in saves all lyrics, as found in the Edit Lyrics dialog box, to a text file. See Extract Lyrics Plug-in." So if I saw a clean set of lyrics extracted, was it stripping away detritus or was I just looking at a clean file? I did this a long time ago when I was just perusing all of the plug-ins to see what was there. So I cannot say.

I hope someone else finds Plug-ins > Lyrics > Extract Lyrics and tells us what it does. Also hope someone can explain this installation anomaly. (Hope I get my hard drive back, too. Ugh! I'm backed up, but it's still a nuisance.)


Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3

Post Edited (Jeanne R) : 3/29/2011 10:53:23 AM (GMT-5)

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Erik Van Geit
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   Posted 3/29/2011 12:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeanne R said...
But now that I read that help file, it says "This plug-in saves all lyrics, as found in the Edit Lyrics dialog box, to a text file. See Extract Lyrics Plug-in."
Never saw versions between 2002 and 2011. They must have renamed it to "export lyrics" within the lyrics menu. It is doing what you wrote.


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Jeanne R
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   Posted 3/29/2011 1:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Erik, it gives you a clean set of lyrics even if there are old lyrics in the Edit Lyrics window? in 2011?

Thanks for clarifying,

Jeanne


Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3

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Erik Van Geit
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   Posted 3/29/2011 1:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No it doesn't do what we would like.
 
The lyrics are still exported as they are in the lyrics window.
(apart from choices ou can make like "only chorus, versie, section" and 'without hyphens")


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Derrek
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   Posted 3/29/2011 6:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I tend to write my lyrics in a word processor (with spell check) and paste them into my script; then I send them through a hyphenating web site and paste them into the lyric window for click assignment. So I am working in the opposite direction.


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DCrocker
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   Posted 3/31/2011 9:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For a choral piece, I prefer to put each staff as a separate verse. This eliminates the problem of editing other lyrics in addition to the one you thought you were working on. When I go back to enter correction 6 months later, I don't have to figure out which of the 3000 "al-le-lu-ia"s is the one I'm looking for. Not the way the program was designed, I guess -- but, hey!


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(Previously used everything back to version 2.0.1)

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Erik Van Geit
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   Posted 4/1/2011 8:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
DCrocker said...
For a choral piece, I prefer to put each staff as a separate verse. This eliminates the problem of editing other lyrics in addition to the one you thought you were working on. When I go back to enter correction 6 months later, I don't have to figure out which of the 3000 "al-le-lu-ia"s is the one I'm looking for. Not the way the program was designed, I guess -- but, hey!

Yes, that's about my filosophy too at the moment, though I use "clone lyrics" when the same text is repeated in the same stacks.
The extra work you need to do at first (for instance to set baselines & to paste lyrics), will be payed of later. Exporting works accurately, errors are easy to catch, less unexpected shifts in one word; "control", I feel more control when working.
 
I'm about at verse 50, a third of the entire musical ...


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