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RamonC
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 33

Posted 9/7/2005 2:47 PM (GMT -5)

Ok. I am assuming that there is no way to accomplish what I would like to accomplish, but in the small case that somebody knows the answer, I figured I'd give it a shot.

So I am working on a piece that involves 21 different accidentals for microtonality. (It is not my piece-just doing the copy work on it)\
I know I can override the 10 standard accidentals that finale has to offer, but I would really like to be able to add more to the list. The whole 21 if possible.

Basically so I can add a character by hitting + three times in speedy and get a different character than hitting it twice.

This seems like a job for a potential plug-in, but who knows... maybe one of you out there has a solution.

good luck to me
Ramon

Robert P.
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 1691

Posted 9/7/2005 3:14 PM (GMT -5)

Hi Ramon,

Some years ago, I designed the November font, which includes (I believe) all known microtonal accidentals. You can check this:

www.klemm-music.de/november/index_e.htm

I also remember that I created templates and expression libraries for those accidentals. One was a non-standard key signature (to be used as you described in Speedy), the other was a set of note expressions (defined for playback!). I believe the note expression way is easier.

Perhaps that is an answer to what you're looking for.

Robert

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 9/7/2005 4:20 PM (GMT -5)

Take a look at the attached file.

It contains accidentals for a key signature of 1/8-tones.

I'm not sure that there are 21 accidentals, but I suppose that this file could help you on the way.

Peter

File Attachment :
Eighth-toneKeySignature.mus 55KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 367 time(s).

Stephen Henry
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 238

Posted 9/7/2005 10:25 PM (GMT -5)

Please consider:

http://www.hindson.com.au/indexOLD.html

This is a link to Mr. Matthew Hindson's page of various musical fonts, one of which is microtonal accidentals. Also, I own November and can recommend it most highly. It is a complete and comprehensive musical font that produces a suberb output. Hope this helps.

(as to Mr. Hindson's zip files, you might experience a problem if you use Winzip. Winrar, on the other hand, opens them without difficulty.)

RamonC
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 33

Posted 9/8/2005 2:56 PM (GMT -5)

A bit of clarification and further request for information in this thread.

I actually have the font I am required to use. There are 21 accidentals per diatonic pitch including the standard sharp, flat, and natural.

But I think Peter's response is getting me very very close.
I've used the nonstandard key signature dialog box to create a key map with 10 chromatic pitches between each diatonic step (10 for the sharps 10 for the flats).
Then use the attribute feature to choose the right font, then set up a Symbol List ID with 10 alterations in either direction

However, Finale seems to stop me after 7 alterations in either direction. Does anybody know if there is a way around this? I need to get that to 10 functional alterations in either direction. Then I'm set!

I may have lost even myself on this one.

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 9/8/2005 5:46 PM (GMT -5)

RamonC said...
...I've used the nonstandard key signature dialog box to create a key map with 10 chromatic pitches between each diatonic step (10 for the sharps 10 for the flats)...

This is not clear to me. Please explain:

1. What do you mean when you say "diatonic step"? A wholestep or a half-step?

2. When you say "10 chromatic pitches between each diatonic step", do you mean that the step is divided into 10 steps or divided into 11 steps?
With a division into 11 steps, you have 10 pitches "in between".
Or do you mean that the step is divided into 8 steps? (that makes 9 pitches if you also count the initial pitch)

In Other Words:
What is the "resolution"? Is it 48 steps per octave? 60 steps per octave? 66 steps per octave? 120 steps per octave? 132 steps per octave? (standard resolution is 12 steps per octave)

Is "raise 4 sharps" the same pitch as "lower 4 flats from the step above"?

Peter

RamonC
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 33

Posted 9/8/2005 7:15 PM (GMT -5)

Well, it appears as though my problem is beyond my explanational abilities.

so here is a picture of the accidentals I need to use. So Between G natural and A natural there are 10 ascending accidentals (variations on sharp)
and between A natural and G natural there are 10 descending accidentals (variations on flat)

enough of my silly words.

the tif is a little nicer looking than the jpg.

-r

Image Attachment :

microtonal.jpg 56KB (image/jpeg)

This image has been viewed 301 time(s).

Image Attachment :

microtonal.TIF 21KB (image/tiff)

This image has been viewed 294 time(s).

Playflute
Life is a take...

Date Joined Aug 2003
Total Posts : 267

Posted 9/8/2005 8:43 PM (GMT -5)

Maybe the beginning of something.... but only maybe...

in the nonstandard key signature dialogue box... (you get there when in key-signature tool you select 'non standard key signature')...choose nonlinear keysignature....
Now press keymap ; you see a keyboard with your white and black notes... and little squares that you can define as white notes or as black notes... as is you see 7 diatonic steps over 12 total steps which is the usual major scale. As I understand, you'd need 1 octave to be 7 diatonic steps with 66 total steps... so set it to 66 total steps... you'll have 61 diatonic steps...
Now define your 'black' notes to 'reduce' the number of diatonic steps... lets say your first note is a white note, then have subsequent 10 squares black (you can see your keyboard taking the respective shape), then a white note again, then again 10 black notes, as between degree 3 and 4 you'd only have half a tone, you'd have only 5 black notes there, etc...
Now I have not yet found out how it should work from there on...

Serge

Acer1703/2.66Gb/1Gb/WinXPHome-sp2/F2005b.r2/TGTools

RamonC
Registered Member

Date Joined Sep 2005
Total Posts : 33

Posted 9/8/2005 11:16 PM (GMT -5)

yeah, I've gotten that far,

but when I reassign the alterations it will only let me go 7 in either direction. Even with 66 chromatic steps to the octave.
Well, I'll keep trying.

s.n.e.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 119

Posted 6/11/2013 5:04 PM (GMT -5)

Dear colleagues,

was this ever solved? Is it possible to define more than 14 microtonal accidentals in a non standard key signature (7 up, 7 down)?
The file Peter Thomsen posted, seems to demonstrate the limits rather well. Does anyone see, how to add more than this?
For me, too, there seems to be a limit at 7 each way.

Cheers,
Soren

Soren

Fin2010b, WinXP, MacOS 10.7

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 6/11/2013 8:08 PM (GMT -5)

s.n.e. said...
…was this ever solved? Is it possible to define more than 14 microtonal accidentals in a non standard key signature (7 up, 7 down)?
The file Peter Thomsen posted, seems to demonstrate the limits rather well. Does anyone see, how to add more than this?
For me, too, there seems to be a limit at 7 each way…

The limitation is still the same in Finale 2012.

As a workaround you can change an individual accidental with the Special Tools Tool's sub-tool Accidental Mover Tool, in the dialog box Accidental Settings.

Or you can add false accidentals with the Articulation Tool.

Peter

Mac Finale, 2011c & 2012c, Dolet 6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.8.4, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

s.n.e.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 119

Posted 6/12/2013 3:32 AM (GMT -5)

Thank you, Peter.
I had forgotten about being able to switch accidental with the Accidental Mover Tool.
Would you check for me, though? It will not let me switch accidental in a non standard key. After the operation nothing happens. Am I doing something wrong, or is this how it is?
Thanks!

Soren

Fin2010b, WinXP, MacOS 10.7

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 6/12/2013 4:54 AM (GMT -5)

Soren,

I can confirm your observation:
Changing an accidental via the dialog box Accidental Settings does not work in a non standard key signature with custom note accidentals that are created with the dialog box Special Key Signature Attributes.
It seems that the dialog box Key Signature Attributes is the culprit.

What does work, though:

- Hide the real accidental (Speedy Entry Tool: the * key).
- Add a false accidental with the Articulation Tool.

Peter

Mac Finale, 2011c & 2012c, Dolet 6 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.8.4, iMac Intel Core i7, 2.93 GHz, 16 GB RAM

s.n.e.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 119

Posted 6/12/2013 5:11 AM (GMT -5)

Hi, Peter.

That is a good work around and should do for now.
Thank you for this!!

Best,

Soren

Fin2010b, WinXP, MacOS 10.7

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