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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 9/10/2006 5:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Take a look.

Peter


Mac Finale 2004c, 2005b, 2006c & 2007, Dolet 3.3 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.4.7, iMac G4 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM



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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 9/10/2006 10:17 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...and #4.

Both files are in 2004 format, so many of you should be able to see, how it's done.

Peter


Mac Finale 2004c, 2005b, 2006c & 2007, Dolet 3.3 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.4.7, iMac G4 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM



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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 9/10/2006 3:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Very cool! How was the broken beam done? Does Finale just do that automatically? I had expected it just to print through the other note.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 9/10/2006 3:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
motet said...
Very cool! How was the broken beam done? Does Finale just do that automatically? I had expected it just to print through the other note.

open my posted Finale 2004 file (File0001.mus).

If you have different display colors for the 4 layers, you will see that the trick is to have the same beam in two layers - in combination with the Beam Extension Tool.
In this case the layers are Layer 2 and Layer 3.

In Layer 2 the beam is shortened so that there is only a short visible beam on the right stem.
In Layer 3 the beam is shortened so that there is only a short visible beam on the left stem.

Peter


Mac Finale 2004c, 2005b, 2006c & 2007, Dolet 3.3 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.4.7, iMac G4 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM

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Mike Rosen
himself



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   Posted 9/10/2006 5:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Great trick.
We are not worthy! We are not worthy!


Mike Rosen
 
WebLackey for the Seattle SeaChordsmen
 
PrintMusic 2006 on the PC
Nightingale on the Ol' Macintosh
 
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Motet
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   Posted 9/11/2006 1:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bravi, Thomas and Peter!

Now, the attached--from the same edition--illustrates something less arcane that I could use fairly often: breaking a barline between staves in a grand staff to accomodate a dynamic. I can see hiding the barline and then drawing two pieces with a shape or somesuch, but is there a more straight-forward way? What would be easiest is a dynamic with a little opaque white halo around it, but I guess fonts don't work that way.

Note that in the last bar of example 1 above a dynamic similarly breaks an inter-stave stem.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

Post Edited (motet) : 9/11/2006 1:20:18 AM (GMT-5)


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Tyler
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   Posted 9/11/2006 2:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
motet said...
Bravi, Thomas and Peter!

Now, the attached--from the same edition--illustrates something less arcane that I could use fairly often: breaking a barline between staves in a grand staff to accomodate a dynamic. I can see hiding the barline and then drawing two pieces with a shape or somesuch, but is there a more straight-forward way? What would be easiest is a dynamic with a little opaque white halo around it, but I guess fonts don't work that way.


You just described exactly what you need to do in Finale. You can do this - in the text expression designer, create an enclosure for your dynamic, set it to be opaque, and make the line width 0.


Windows XP, all updates



Real Time Finale Discussion - FinaleIRC.Com

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Tyler
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   Posted 9/11/2006 2:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter Thomsen said...
Take a look.

Peter


It can also be done within a single layer, but Thomas multi-layer method is faster and more stable.


Windows XP, all updates



Real Time Finale Discussion - FinaleIRC.Com

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Motet
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   Posted 9/11/2006 12:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Tyler. I wonder, would you ever not want an enclosure around a dynamic? Seems rare that you'd want it touching other things.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

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Motet
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   Posted 9/21/2006 1:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was impressed that Finale could do the attached mock-up from La Boheme--where the instruments in the middle (an offstage band) come in early in a new key and time signature--without resorting to any measure shapes or expressions to fudge things.

The only thing that's wanting is that the underlying Finale measures are the band's shorter measures, so the instruments which aren't playing will have too many rests shown in their multimeasure rests. But it's not a bad idea to give everyone a cue there, anyway.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

Post Edited (motet) : 9/21/2006 3:07:55 PM (GMT-5)


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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 9/24/2006 8:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
motet said...
...The only thing that's wanting is that the underlying Finale measures are the band's shorter measures, so the instruments which aren't playing will have too many rests shown in their multimeasure rests...


It can be done, by solving the problem "the other way around":
Stay in 3/4, and add false barlines, false time signatures, and false whole measure rests.

See the attached file.

Peter


Mac Finale 2004c, 2005b, 2006c & 2007, Dolet 3.3 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.4.7, iMac G4 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM



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Motet
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   Posted 9/24/2006 4:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was doing it the backwards way so that the before- and after-barline spacing would be done automatically, but making the false barlines be articulations seems to take care of that--most excellent!

What I ended up doing, though, was to put cues for the 2/4 drum in all the parts that are resting, since it's a confusing place and the conductor will be doing something out of the ordinary; everyone should know exactly what's going on. I made the false barlines dashed so there's no confusion counting measure numbers. And I left the dashed barlines for the instruments that are playing in 3/4 since the conductor will be subdividing (not all instruments are shown in the attached).

But I'm glad to know your trick for future reference--thanks!


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

Post Edited (motet) : 9/24/2006 4:27:35 PM (GMT-5)


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J. Gedan
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   Posted 9/24/2006 6:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QcCowboy said: "I'm not exactly sure WHY they would want to preserve Debussy's own engraving skills (or lack thereof). for example, the fifth one (from La Fille...) is actually "impossible" to play as written."
Sorry, I don't understand this statement. As a mixture of the notation of the sound (because of pedaling) and of what the fingers and keys do, it is very clear and understandable at the first view. And it's very very easy to play. Notating this with Finale maybe some work, but it's not really hard to do it.

motet told what Zoltán Kocsis said: "Features of Debussy's piano notation have been reproduced unchanged. Examples are the repeated accidentals for tied notes, the little double lines marking the duration and ending of a rit. or cédéz., the differences between actual ties and ties indicating the continuity of sound ("hanging ties"), the mixing of Italian and French terms and expression marks, etc..."
This is exactly the same as Durand did in the original editions, so there is no need to tell that this edition is something special. Könemann just copied the original editions, the difference between Durand and Könemann is, that Durand's editions are of much higher typographic quality. The low quality of Könemann and the higher quality of Durand can be done with Finale, if you know how to use it, as Peter showed.

I did some of Debussy's piano music with Finale, I never came to a point where I had to say, a special kind of notation is not possible. All you need is enough time in some cases and enough patience and enough skills in using the program.


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www.pian-e-forte.de

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Motet
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   Posted 9/24/2006 7:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, I happened to see some used Durand et. Cie editions of some of the preludes the other day and was going to report here that they were similar to Könemann's in format. The latter state in their notes that the first edition (i.e., Durand) was their primary source. They fixed "engraver's errors" as well as incorporated information from the autographs and Debussy's hand annotations of the first edition.

I didn't look at the formatting carefully but the Durand was very poorly printed, and this has been my experience with their editions of Debussy's orchestral music as well: poorly printed and too many errors. If their typographic quality was as high as you say, it's a shame they didn't engage better printers and proofread their editions more carefully.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

Post Edited (motet) : 9/24/2006 10:43:23 PM (GMT-5)

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J. Gedan
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   Posted 9/25/2006 1:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"I didn't look at the formatting carefully but the Durand was very poorly printed..."
I can't confirm this with the editions I own. Maybe you are right with others. The "Preludes, Deuxieme Livre" for example are excellent, although I prefer following some different rules concerning stem length and beaming angles, but I don't see that they are poorly printed.


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Motet
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   Posted 9/26/2006 1:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The preludes I saw in the used bookstore were very old; perhaps they suffered from deterioration of the paper. The only thing I can put my finger on here is a miniature score of Jeux, which is kind of fuzzily printed on rough paper, which is my memory of the orchestra parts as well. Glad to hear that's not indicative of all of Durand.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 10/9/2006 7:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just for the fun of it, here's another one I made long ago.
The joke is in measure 10 (the last measure).

Peter


Mac Finale 2004c, 2005b, 2006c & 2007, Dolet 3.4 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.4.8, iMac G4 1.25 GHz, 1 GB RAM



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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 10/9/2006 10:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
J. Gedan said...
QcCowboy said: "I'm not exactly sure WHY they would want to preserve Debussy's own engraving skills (or lack thereof). for example, the fifth one (from La Fille...) is actually "impossible" to play as written."
Sorry, I don't understand this statement. As a mixture of the notation of the sound (because of pedaling) and of what the fingers and keys do, it is very clear and understandable at the first view. And it's very very easy to play. Notating this with Finale maybe some work, but it's not really hard to do it.



if you don't understand why I say that "as written" it is technically a logical impossiblility, then you are not a pianist... or maybe you are thinking too MUCH like a pianist.
one can NOT play a short note at the exact same position as a held note.
it makes no difference at all that the note is held from one measure to the next and then the next if there is a note IN that chord that is re-attacked. it is illogical.
I perfectly understand what Debussy was writing.
I have performed all those preludes in concert at one time or another.
However, I maintain that Debussy's notational talents are sorely lacking.
if the entire thing is pedalled then is there certainly a better way of notating it.
Debussy was notorious for notating piano music as though it were an orchestral score - with held notes that could not be physically held, or which really made no difference whether they were held or not (the latter in this particular case).


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2007
currently installed: version 3.7.1 (under Win 3.11), 2005b, 2006b, 2007
Full GPO
Win XP

Michel R. Edward
Les Éditions du Dos Blanc

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J. Gedan
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   Posted 10/9/2006 11:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QcCowboy, my main instrument is the piano, but I also play the violin and I studied and wrote a lot of music not only for these instruments, but also for string quartet, brass ensemble and others. So I really don't think too much like a pianist. But I think very much like a pianist, if I read piano music. What's wrong about that?
Debussy himself was a pianist, so what is wrong about his thinking like a pianist while writing piano music? He wrote a lot of orchestral works, so he knew what he did when he notated his music. Besides he was a very intelligent (sometimes ironic) person, so it's really ridiculous to tell his way of notation is a lack of whatever. His way of notation is because of a certain intention, and as you said, "I perfectly understand what Debussy was writing." And I guess you know what sound Debussy wanted to suggest by his notation. If someone writes his music in a way you perfectly understand, where is the lack of engraving skills?


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www.pian-e-forte.de

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Thomas Hansen
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   Posted 10/10/2006 10:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter Thomsen said...
Just for the fun of it, here's another one I made long ago.
The joke is in measure 10 (the last measure).


Great trick! :)

I'm uploading 2 tiffs of something I did some time ago (2001)... the erratic lines are WMF imported, but all beams, barlines etc are finale standard notation...


"All Art is quite useless." Oscar Wilde

Finale 2.0 to 2005 (waiting for 2006)!

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 1/3/2007 8:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Since this topic is mainly for fun, I will post an example of "impossible" Secondary Beam Breaks in combination with Cross-Staff Notes and Reverse Stemming:

Broken Secondary Beams positioned above and below the 8th Note Beam.

I did this example in Finale, but if you try to create exactly the same example, you will find that it's not so simple.
The "evil" part of it comes where you break only the 32nd beams.

Not that I'm trying to provoke you, but you can't figure it out.

But don't worry.
I'll post the solution ... tomorrow ... or some day ... perhaps. devil

Peter


Mac Finale 2006d & 2007a, Dolet 3.5 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.4.8, iMac Intel Core 2 Duo, 2.16 GHz, 2 GB RAM


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hexadec
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   Posted 1/3/2007 9:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
so should we not post a solution then?
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Zuill
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   Posted 1/3/2007 9:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Here's one way. It's not that difficult. (Or did I not do it right?) This is done in Finale 2005.

Zuill


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hexadec
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   Posted 1/3/2007 9:54 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
i assumed peter meant we should do it while using cross staff beaming. the beam extension trick will make it work with cross staff beaming too. but obviously we can do it more than one way.
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Zuill
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   Posted 1/3/2007 9:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If you can do something better without cross staff beaming, then do it. Peter has some beams with the 32nd notes that go beyond the stem, so his approach has drawbacks as well.I say do what6 saves time and looks right. Mine does both.

Zuill


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