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cGilmore
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 136

Posted 4/19/2007 10:31 AM (GMT -5)

So, I've been trying to expand what I know with Finale (I'm still using 2005) by trying to recreate "unconventional" engraving practices from examples I can find on the internet. Below are 2 examples. One of a Schenkerian analysis and the other is just a single page from a modern score.

My question/comment is this: with the score, I pretty much felt like I was using Finale like a drawing program. This can't be right, is it? I can't imagine making an entire score (multiple pages) the way I made this one - not that it was difficult to do (it didn't take much time at all), but it isn't very functional. If a composer wanted to add a measure or anything to the like or make just about ANY edits to the music, it would greatly affect the out come. I just couldn't figure out a way to format Finale to produce a score like this that was also functional.

Or is this just the way to go about making a late 20th century - 21 century looking score? In which case, form over function would reign supreme.

Thanks

Post Edited (phat rat) : 4/19/2007 9:43:16 AM (GMT-5)

File Attachment :
Symph. Var. by Lutoslaw.pdf 94KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 440 time(s).

File Attachment :
Brahms and Schenker.pdf 49KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 634 time(s).

cGilmore
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 136

Posted 4/19/2007 10:47 AM (GMT -5)

Oh, you can view the originals from these sites:

http://www.tunesmithmusic.com/engraving.htm#samples

and

http://www.dimusicengraving.com/

BopEuph
Occasional Lurker, Occasional Poster

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 1163

Posted 4/19/2007 12:36 PM (GMT -5)

First of all, the Lutoslaw seems needlessly complex. I wouldn't like to read an entire score like that. I'm not sure how easy it would be to create something like that.

The Brahms and Schenker seems pretty simple if you use a few of the advanced tool options. I'm not sure if there's a "real" way to make a beam across the half notes. I'd just create a smart shape for it.

Nick

Peter West
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 4272

Posted 4/19/2007 2:44 PM (GMT -5)

Your examples look pretty good. I think that whether or not the score is "needlessly complex" is irrelevant. It is what it is, and looks the way it does.

Finale is designed around traditional music notation, so if you want to set Vivaldi or Mozart it generally won't let you down. The further you deviate from that the more you need to move from Finale's defaults and basic methods. Generally there will be more than one solution to any given problem, and experience will tell you which is most likely to be reliable, stable and so on. I have posted examples on here previously of scores far more complex than the ones you have chosen as examples, scores which are now in print. Finale has sometimes been difficult. Only on about 3 occasions have I had to revert to using Illustrator, and I suspect that in those cases 2007 will do what i needed.

Peter
Music Publishing Services

*********************
Mac 2.66GHz Intel Quad, 4GB RAM /OSX.4.8 /30 inch cinema display+20 inch Cinema Display
Finale 2007c
Logic Pro 7.2
Yamaha P-150 Electric Piano
Motu 828 MkII (Firewire)
With Alesis A13 ADAT to Audio converter
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cGilmore
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 136

Posted 4/20/2007 5:46 PM (GMT -5)

BobEuph,

Yeah, the Brahms was real easy. FYI. The way I did the beaming across was to make those notes the 1st 3 eighth notes I would input in the measure, then fill out the rest of the note values after those 3 notes. Then with the advanced tools palatte, I just changed the note heads, and with the note mover, positioned them where they went in the measure and adjusted the rest of the notes accordingly.

Peter West,

I hope this isn't too much to ask, but could you possibly repost or direct me to the posts where you attached your advanced score examples and maybe I could bounce some questions off you (and the forum) in trying to recreate something similar. And it's cool that you mentioned Illustrator. I've always wondered if engravers ever had to use actual graphics programs to create some unconventional scores. Interesting.

Thanks.

Post Edited (phat rat) : 4/20/2007 4:49:08 PM (GMT-5)

Ron.
Composer

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828

Posted 4/20/2007 7:13 PM (GMT -5)

BopEuph said...
First of all, the Lutoslaw seems needlessly complex. I wouldn't like to read an entire score like that. I'm not sure how easy it would be to create something like that.

The Brahms and Schenker seems pretty simple if you use a few of the advanced tool options. I'm not sure if there's a "real" way to make a beam across the half notes. I'd just create a smart shape for it.

Nick

I guess it's a matter of taste. I found the Lutoslaw to be easier to follow than a traditional score. With all unused measures erased, it makes the music more accessible to the eye. Otherwise, it is standard symphony orchestra layout.

I suspect it might be quite difficult to prepare a score of that nature in Finale, but then, I haven't tried.

Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com

Finale 2006c; full GPO & JABB
M-Audio Keystation 61es
Win XP/Pro, 2.7 GHz processor, 2 Gb RAM

loweredsixth
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 167

Posted 4/21/2007 12:47 AM (GMT -5)

ON the symphony score, why are some of the "blank" measures not erased. For example, the second measure on the flute and clarinet staves.

(currently using Finale 2006, Windows XP on a Sony Vaio, and a Yamaha PSR-260 midi keyboard)

BopEuph
Occasional Lurker, Occasional Poster

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 1163

Posted 4/21/2007 4:19 AM (GMT -5)

phat rat said...
BobEuph,

Yeah, the Brahms was real easy. FYI. The way I did the beaming across was to make those notes the 1st 3 eighth notes I would input in the measure, then fill out the rest of the note values after those 3 notes. Then with the advanced tools palatte, I just changed the note heads, and with the note mover, positioned them where they went in the measure and adjusted the rest of the notes accordingly.

I'm an idiot. That's such an easy workaround for that one. Wow. I think I need rest.

Nick

Peter West
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 4272

Posted 4/21/2007 7:21 AM (GMT -5)

here is a page I've posted previously to demonstrate what can be done taking Finale images into Illustrator. This was done 10 years ago in Finale 97 and Illustrator v.4

File Attachment :
Page 07.pdf 666KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 329 time(s).

Doug Blackmore
www.aviatorsmusic.com

Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 2724

Posted 4/21/2007 6:27 PM (GMT -5)

I wonder if Finale's "visual index" was done with Finale alone, or were there any "cheats".

Doug Blackmore

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Finale 2006r3, Win 2K Pro

Bill Wadlinger
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 694

Posted 4/26/2007 7:36 PM (GMT -5)

I'm slogging my way through reading to get caught up on the latest here on the forum, and am only up to a thread that narrowly missed ending with Doug's post on 4/21. I was fascinated by phat rat's scores and by Peter's 10-year-old Finale/Illustrator example.

In an effort to improve my Finale skills, I thought I might attempt to set John Stump's famous "Faerie Aire and Death Waltz: a Tribute to Zdenko G. Fibich."

On the off chance that some unfortunate denizen of our forum may not have seen it yet, please have a look at http://www.well.com/user/bryan/waltz.html. Has anyone ever tried this on in Finale? I didn't want to actually do that until I had at least partially mastered some of the piece on the Macedonian tambura, but... well, never mind. Have a look at it and enjoy. devil

Bill

Current favorite: Plain old Jack Daniels
Notation program: Finale 2k7b, 2k6c, 2k5 and 2K4b

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 4/26/2007 8:18 PM (GMT -5)

Not only would that cause Finale to crash, I can imagine there might even be some smoke coming out of the back of the computer tower, not to mention blindness as a possible side effect.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP

Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 4/27/2007 2:08 AM (GMT -5)

Now we are at it:
Here is more from John Stump.

Peter

Mac Finale 2006d & 2007c, Dolet 3.5 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.4.9, iMac Intel Core 2 Duo, 2.16 GHz, 2 GB RAM

Image Attachment :

Prelude.gif 311KB (image/gif)

This image has been viewed 663 time(s).

Peter West
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 4272

Posted 4/27/2007 2:16 AM (GMT -5)

I don't see anything in either of the John stump scores that couldn't be done in Finale with a bit of tweaking in Illustrator. The setting is a bit cramped though, I think I'd be inclined to set them on 2 pages to give a bit of space and clarity to help the players.

I'd like to see the full score of one of these.

Nice engraving though.

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