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Daz
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   Posted Yesterday 4:05 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi all.

I'm trying to puzzle out some guitar notation.
The score is from a Spanish composer, so there is a mixture of Italian and Spanish notational elements.

Looking at the pic,



I can see that the E is supposed to be a harmonic.
The 7 and circled 5 I'm guessing mean the harmonic is played on the 7th fret of the 5th (A) string
I'm not certain about the "Arm." notation. Is he just emphasising that the note is supposed to be a harmonic?

The closest thing that I can find in Dolmetch is

Armazón - Spanish m./f.) frame, framework, timberwork, shell
or
Armazón - (Spanish m.) the side(s) of stringed instruments such as the violin, violoncello, guitar, etc.

Not quite certain what that means (if I have the correct translation/intereptation).

Any help would be appreciated

Cheers...


Daz. :o)

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Post Edited (Daz) : 8/7/2007 6:17:36 AM (GMT-5)


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Michel R. E.
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   Posted Yesterday 5:21 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
if I recall correctly, arm. is for harmonic. "armonico"? (I know the italian plural is armonici)


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Daz
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   Posted Yesterday 5:30 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QcCowboy said...
if I recall correctly, arm. is for harmonic. "armonico"? (I know the italian plural is armonici)


Hah.. Found it

armónico (m.), armónica (f.) (Spanish) harmonic

For a while there I was wondering if he was indicating a tap on the side of the guitar

Thanks Michael

Cheers...


Daz. :o)

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Post Edited (Daz) : 8/7/2007 6:18:18 AM (GMT-5)

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guitarsean
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   Posted Yesterday 10:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What piece is that, out of curiosity?


Sean Gill

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Daz
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   Posted Yesterday 10:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Sean

It's from Concierto de Aranjuez

Cheers...


Daz. :o)

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Post Edited (Daz) : 8/7/2007 11:59:21 AM (GMT-5)

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Brad H
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   Posted Yesterday 11:00 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The question that I've never been able to get successfully answered is this: What is the correct modern notation? Should the diamond shaped notehead signify the actual spot your finger touches or the sounding pitch. I write a lot of music for guitar and we have a huge guitar program here, but I can't ever seem to get a straight answer, I've even gotten different answers form the same person. Personally, I favor the actual location on the fretboard with a string number indication above it. Of course it's a moot point on the twelfth fret.


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Éric Dussault
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   Posted Yesterday 12:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The example is in very old and outdated guitar notation.
Today you would write the harmonic at sounding pitch (one octave higher) with diamond notehead, which precisely means it's an harmonic in guitar notation.
The circled 5 is ok and the roman 7 (preferably in italic) indicates the fret.
I work for a guitar publisher and we use these standards.


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Daz
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   Posted Yesterday 1:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Éric Dussault said...
The example is in very old and outdated guitar notation.


Not surprising.

The piece was composed in 1939.

Cheers...


Daz. :o)

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guitarsean
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   Posted Yesterday 3:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I second Éric's description for modern notation. I do also often see a regular notehead and not a diamond, but always with 'harm.' above the staff.


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Brad H
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   Posted Yesterday 4:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, if that's the consensus, maybe I should do it that way. I still maintain, however, that it's easier to sight read when the notehead shows the position on the fingerboard and not the sounding pitch


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guitarsean
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   Posted Yesterday 9:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Unless I read it wrong, Éric's statement "harmonic at sounding pitch (one octave higher)" referred to the fact that the guitar is transposed an octave. I would put the note head, diamond or otherwise, where the corresponding fretted note would be. Or to use your original example, leave the note head where it is, even thought the resulting harmonic will be an octave and a fifth higher. This is part of the notation guide in one of my Warner Bros. guitar books. I see similar things from Hal Leonard and Cherry Lane:


Sean Gill

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Brad H
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   Posted Yesterday 10:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see what you are saying, so I guess we actually agree. Hopefully, we'll get a few more opinions.


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Éric Dussault
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   Posted Today 7:19 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
guitarsean said...
Unless I read it wrong, Éric's statement "harmonic at sounding pitch (one octave higher)" referred to the fact that the guitar is transposed an octave.


No, I wasn't referring to the octave transposition of the guitar. First I must say that in the last century there has been a lot of different practices about the notation of harmonics in classical guitar music, so it is hard to tell that something is completely universal. Maybe the practice in the pop field (WB, Hal Leonard, etc...) is different.
What I can tell is that we engrave music for many of the most established classical guitar publishing houses and as far as I know the method I described is the one we always use and so far I have seen no complaint about this.


Éric Dussault
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Brad H
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   Posted Today 9:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Eric,

At the risk of being reduntant, but I just want to be perfectly clear, you are saying that you alway show the harmonic at the sounding pitch? If you're doing engraving for classical gutar publishers I would certainly consider you the authority.


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Ron.
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   Posted Today 10:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just a (probably) naive question:

Doesn't it make a difference to the quality of the resulting harmonic depending on what string it is produced on--or whether it's a natural or artificial?

I'm thinking of the violin here, where the harmonics are notated as played, rather than as sounded--because how they are produced makes a difference.


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Brad H
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   Posted Today 11:20 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Definitely, the wound strings have a much different color. And of course there are some tuning issues relative to equal temperament. The "F#" harmonic on the ninth fret of the D string is significantly different from the one produced on the seventh fret of the B string.


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Éric Dussault
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   Posted Today 12:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brad, the string and fret would clarify where it is to be played. It can be precised also that it is artificial (art.) harmonic.

And yes, I am saying that harmonic should always be notated at sounding pitch.


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Brad H
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   Posted Today 1:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for your reply. When notating string indication, I have always used a number with a circle around it. What is the preferred method for indicating string and fret, 3/7, 1/12, etc.? On artifical harmonics, I thought you notated the note pressed down with a regular notehead and the sounding harmonic with a diamond an octave above. Is that now considered an outdated method?


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Éric Dussault
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   Posted Today 10:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brad H said...
Thanks for your reply. When notating string indication, I have always used a number with a circle around it. What is the preferred method for indicating string and fret, 3/7, 1/12, etc.?


The number with a circle around it is universal in guitar notation I believe. For the fret indication, italic roman numeral (7,12,5) is what I see the most often (and personally use). I also sometimes see V, XII, etc., but they can easily be mistaken for barré or position indicators, so as I don't want people to misinterpret the meaning of what is intented, italic 7 just does the job perfectly.


Brad H said...
On artifical harmonics, I thought you notated the note pressed down with a regular notehead and the sounding harmonic with a diamond an octave above. Is that now considered an outdated method?


I would use this method in extreme passages, where a lot of notes are played with artificial harmonics (with the bottom note smaller and parenthesized). In normal situations, just writing the sounding pitch with art. (artificial) bracketed over the passage makes it clear, as the vast majority of artificial harmonics are simply octaves (ex. A, 2nd fret, 3rd string - harm. A 14th fret, 3rd string). Adding string indications will normally erase any reasonable doubts.


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Éric Dussault
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   Posted Today 10:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was looking again at the example posted, extracted from Aranjuez, and it struck me as a good example on non-efficient writing.
There are 3 different informations saying that it is an harmonic.
7, º, and arm.

Well, the 7 is not exactly the same, but if the diamond-shape notehead was there, 7 is the only thing missing to clarify the passage, along the the circled string.

Anyway...time to go to sleep now...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Éric Dussault
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Daz
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   Posted Today 10:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Éric Dussault said...
I was looking again at the example posted, extracted from Aranjuez, and it struck me as a good example on non-efficient writing.
There are 3 different informations saying that it is an harmonic.
7, º, and arm.


Heh..

Which is why I posted my original question. I wondered at the duplication, and thought (incorrectly) that he may have been indicating something else with the text.

Cheers...


Daz. :o)

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