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BopEuph
Occasional Lurker, Occasional Poster

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   Posted 10/11/2007 12:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have noticed in recent years, especially with the further knowledge of Finale and Sibelius and their use, that composers are attempting their own work, and many of them don't know any notation rules. Just this week, I downloaded an unaccompanied solo, and I counted about 25 mistakes in the first 30 seconds of looking at this part, most notable among these were very obvious collisions, and the fact that this person used the new document wizard to set up the part, but didn't extract the single part, so there at least wasn't an abbreviated instrument name every line of the staff. The part also couldn't fit ten staves onto one page, apparently. He had eight and two. I was just wondering, with the rise of popularity of notation programs (of which I have no problem with, that will make them prosper), do people think the quality (visual quality, in this case) of new composed music will be at a decline? That part could have been cleaned up by a copyist very quick and inexpensively.

Nick
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Flint
silly bear



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   Posted 10/11/2007 12:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, this is becoming more prevalent. I put some blame on colleges who no longer provide any meaningful notation instruction to students... and some blame to notation programs (like $ibeliu$) whose notational output is, to be blunt, cr4p.
 
Whatever happened to "if you don't want to do it right, don't do it at all"? I would be embarassed to give anyone music like what you received.


Finale 2007c, Garritan Personal Orchestra 2nd ed. Full version
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Mike Rosen
himself



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   Posted 10/11/2007 12:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Of course the visual quality will decline, just as the grammar and spelling of language has declined. Examine the many posts on this forum, which eschew caps and punctuation. Blame it on the educational system, which now encourages conceptual expression, over the antiquated restraints of form.


Mike Rosen
 
WebLackey for the Seattle SeaChordsmen
 
PrintMusic 2006 on the PC: Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
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Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996
 
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 10/11/2007 12:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Technology is no substitute for talent, as I am constantly aware in my own endeavours!

I suspect that standards will go down, as they have with typesetting, graphic design, colour printing etc. When it is easy to do, without any knowledge of the generations of experience acquired over lifetimes, inevitably people will make 'schoolboy' errors.
The Choral Public Domain Library scores are not only riddled with wrong notes, incomplete bars etc, but also often hideously laid out, for example.

The only advantage is that you can hopefully stand head and shoulders above the crowd, and market yourself as a purveyor of quality -- which is the one thing you can't buy in a box.


Finale 2008, 2Ghz iMac, M-Audio Audiophile USB
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www.ancientgroove.co.uk

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ShowPan2512
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   Posted 10/11/2007 12:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Perhaps we could use the notation software to compose our music and then hand copy it and then submitt it to a copyist.     smilewinkgrin


Samantha Penigar
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The opinions in this reply are the express opinions of the writer.  They in no way reflect the overall opinions of other forum members.  You can take them or you can leave them, but you can not change them.  It is an inalienable right to express one's opinion.  I have just expressed mine.

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Flint
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   Posted 10/11/2007 12:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ShowPan2512 said...
Perhaps we could use the notation software to compose our music and then hand copy it and then submitt it to a copyist.     smilewinkgrin

Luddite! ;-)
 
</tongue-cheek>


Finale 2007c, Garritan Personal Orchestra 2nd ed. Full version
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Piccolo, Flute, Alto Flute, Bass Flute
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Dave BTW
Bytheway Dave, what's your last name?



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   Posted 10/11/2007 12:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am an amateur musician, and although I studied with professionals, and do some publishing, I do not have a music degree. The computer has made it possible for me to publish and perform when hand copying would have been practically impossible. I have studied and read much about typesetting and notation, but I am sure I still make mistakes that some here on the forum would be appalled by. Never-the-less, I am trying to improve and do my best. I'm sure my music would not pass muster either, but that will not stop me from pursuing my hobby and dreams.

Someday, if I am very lucky, some professional will typeset my stuff. I don't mind BobEuph's rant at all. I would probably say similar things to my peers in engineering. But for me at least, Finale and desktop publishing have been a God sent.


Dave Bytheway - Desktop Finale 2008 WinXP - Laptop Finale 2008 on WinXP - Forza Lite - TGTools - Nuendo 3.2 - Wavelab 5 - RME Fireface 800

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 10/11/2007 1:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Guys, doesn't anyone else have a strong sense of deja vu here?

Remember when businesspeople used to dictate memos onto tape, and then give them to a secretary to type? Or when journalists used to phone in their copy, which was taken down by a shorthand operative before being worked on and eventually typed out to pass on to the guys who assembled the hot-metal type into pages? Wapping and all that?

Well, things called computers with word processor and DTP software now means everyone can type their own memos, or create their own newspaper articles or even complete newspapers, from the comfort of their Laptop at Starbucks. There ain't much call for hot metal press workers any more.

And sure, much DTP work is a dreadful hotch-potch of lousy design, myriad conflicting typefaces, and who knows what else. And equally sure, the old Editors, Compositors and Proofreaders must be grumbling into their whisky every time they see the latest travesties.

More recently, the photo lab "boys" have had to pour their last bottles of lovely Thiosuphates down the sink, now that a picture taken on a Canon EOS-1D at the edge of a World Cup soccer pitch can be dropped into the Evening Edition seconds later, thanks to the WiFi module on the camera ...

So, copyists, while I sympathise with your plight - tough, that's progress!

Next thing you'll know, people with absolutely no formal music college training will try writing their own compositions! freaked

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Dave BTW
Bytheway Dave, what's your last name?



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   Posted 10/11/2007 1:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Next thing you'll know, people with absolutely no formal music college training will try writing their own compositions! said...


Yea, sort of like ME. While I do not have a music degree, I am a profession engineer, recording engineer, and certainly educated.

Sorry for dipping my toe in your pond.


Dave Bytheway - Desktop Finale 2008 WinXP - Laptop Finale 2008 on WinXP - Forza Lite - TGTools - Nuendo 3.2 - Wavelab 5 - RME Fireface 800

Post Edited (Dave BTW) : 10/11/2007 12:13:15 PM (GMT-5)

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 10/11/2007 1:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why don't the engravers and copyists simply get together and write stickies to help those of us who AREN'T engravers get by?

As a composer, I have a very limited budget for score and parts preparation.
Most of the time, the ensembles I work with also have limited budgets, sometimes non-existant budgets.
The choice then becomes pay for it myself or don't get performed at all.
As it is, it already costs hundreds of dollars to prepare materials for an orchestral piece and ship them to wherever they are going to be performed.
A recent piece of mine to be premiered in Seattle cost over $100 just for the score and parts for a string orchestra piece of 9 minutes, add to that the $70 shipping costs to get all of that to destination.
If I add to that the fee I would be required to pay a professional engraver to double check my work for collisions and lay-out errors, then I would be bankrupt in no time.

Yes, I think it's a shame that colleges and universities don't have courses in typesetting.
Since we have to deal with that sad fact, we should try to find a means of getting by this hurdle.
I've been studying like mad all the books on notation I could get my hands on. And to tell the truth, it's often more confusing than anything, since no two books appear to agree on most basic matters!


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2008
currently installed: version 3.7.1 (under Win 3.11), 2006c, 2007c, 2008
Full GPO, Jazz and Big Band
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Michel R. Edward

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 10/11/2007 2:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Look at the manuscripts of the great composers of the past and imagine, before they were set to print, someone reading that in a demo session. Many couldn't afford copyists either. That's why Bach produced so many offspring: to hand copy his music.

Things haven't changed much. Just the medium.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 10/11/2007 4:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
well, I won't be offering this world any offspring any time soon, so I may as well forget about "breeding for notation".


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2008
currently installed: version 3.7.1 (under Win 3.11), 2006c, 2007c, 2008
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Michel R. Edward

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Dick Brodfuehrer
Hack Arranger and C.O.G. (Chief Old Geezer)



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   Posted 10/11/2007 5:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...

Things haven't changed much. Just the medium.

Zuill

You got that right, Zuill. I can remember when I was in high school in the late 1940s and working with a territory band. The book had a lot of charts that had been scratched out in pencil on the bus on the way to a gig. And you had to navigate many notations like; "Play D twice if Harry doesn't take a solo." Then there were corrections in ink that turned out to be incorrect, and were subsequently re-corrected. You needed ESP to read some of those charts! lol


Finale 2006

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David Young : chambermusic
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   Posted 10/11/2007 5:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think that one of the best things for a young composer is to frequent our forum here, because this is the one place where musicians actually talk about engraving and notation.  Proper engraving concepts sure don't come up on other forums, such as the Sibmusic forum nor on NorthernSounds.  And, as an aside, the composers forum kindly set up (in part) by Finale on the Finale page has gone to trash, with nothing (it seems) other than adolescent composers showcasing their music only on audio sites.... there is not even a flicker of interest in notation there.
 
I will have to say that the past 8 years on the forum, for me, has given me the interest to be a top-notch engraver even though I do not do it professionally.  I have completed precious few pieces, but what I have looks good.  Has that made my music more attractive to performers?... maybe not, but I just don't have the time or know-how to find performers.  Still, I am sufficiently obsessive (in music, anyway) to go over my works 4 or 5 times to weed out notation errors and clean up the look.
 
I have suggested several times to MakeMusic (in detailed letters) that they ought to be the driving force in improving musicians' knowledge of engraving and the overall desire to make music look good, with the mantra that I have heard 2nd most often on this forum:
 
"Music notation must not only be easy to read..... but impossible to mis-read"
 
Finale is a wonderful program, and in my opinion a leader in software for engravers.  So,... I wish (number one, that they fix the bugs to perfect Finale as an engravers' tool) that MakeMusic would find a way to expand their image as an engravers' tool and find ways (perhaps with our help) to make careful engraving and desirious accompliashment.
 
Unfortunately, the relentless trend is ever-so-much toward the idea that engraving doesn't make any sense any more, it is just "playback, playback... playback" as one can see with every "garage band" user day after day.
 
David
 


David Young
 
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.
 
Finale 2.4 through 2008
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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 10/11/2007 6:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QcCowboy said...
Why don't the engravers and copyists simply get together and write stickies to help those of us who AREN'T engravers get by?

As a composer, I have a very limited budget for score and parts preparation.
Most of the time, the ensembles I work with also have limited budgets, sometimes non-existant budgets.
The choice then becomes pay for it myself or don't get performed at all.
As it is, it already costs hundreds of dollars to prepare materials for an orchestral piece and ship them to wherever they are going to be performed.
A recent piece of mine to be premiered in Seattle cost over $100 just for the score and parts for a string orchestra piece of 9 minutes, add to that the $70 shipping costs to get all of that to destination.
If I add to that the fee I would be required to pay a professional engraver to double check my work for collisions and lay-out errors, then I would be bankrupt in no time.

Yes, I think it's a shame that colleges and universities don't have courses in typesetting.
Since we have to deal with that sad fact, we should try to find a means of getting by this hurdle.
I've been studying like mad all the books on notation I could get my hands on. And to tell the truth, it's often more confusing than anything, since no two books appear to agree on most basic matters!

Presumably you got some comeback from the ticket income from this concert? That's what pays for the paper, the shipping, and - with any luck - your time and creative input!

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 10/11/2007 6:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dave BTW said...
Next thing you'll know, people with absolutely no formal music college training will try writing their own compositions! said...


Yea, sort of like ME. While I do not have a music degree, I am a profession engineer, recording engineer, and certainly educated.

Sorry for dipping my toe in your pond.

Dip away Dave - though dare I say it, I think you might just, possibly, conceivably have missed the point of the thorougly intended irony of that piece you quoted! ...

... I must put 2 "freaked" emoticons and at least one smily on my next message of this sort, by way of an even more obvious clue! :-)

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Peter West
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   Posted 10/11/2007 6:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Most of my work for publishers is sorting this stuff out: composer proudly presents Finale files to publisher who later exclaims "I cant print that Sh1t!!" and sends it to me to clean up the mess. The irony is, because the errors and settings are so unpredictable and irrational, it often takes longer (costs more) to tidy it up than to recopy it in my template files.

I'm not complaining one bit.


Peter
Music Publishing Services

*********************
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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 10/11/2007 6:54 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter West said...
I'm not complaining one bit.

Of course not - I presume you charge by the hour? !! lol

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Flint
silly bear



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   Posted 10/11/2007 7:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
chambermusic said...
Unfortunately, the relentless trend is ever-so-much toward the idea that engraving doesn't make any sense any more, it is just "playback, playback... playback" as one can see with every "garage band" user day after day.
I still remember an incident in my "computing in music" class in college where one of the other students, after standing in front of the orchestra for the first time to play his final project, remarked to me "That didn't sound anything like what I wrote in the sequencer!"
 
While I do like having new sounds for Finale playback (general midi drives me nuts!), I'd trade it in a heartbeat for a working divisi staff feature that didn't require extra staves through the whole damn piece. Or something that resembled an intelligent multi-movement formatting tool.
 
Engraving > playback. Any day.


Finale 2007c, Garritan Personal Orchestra 2nd ed. Full version
Windows Vista 32-bit, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

Piccolo, Flute, Alto Flute, Bass Flute
Oboe, English Horn
Eb, Bb, A, Alto, Bass, Contra-alto, Contrabass Clarinet
Basset Horn
Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone Saxophone
Bassoon

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 10/11/2007 8:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
But the reason so much of MakeMusic's resources goes into playback is because that is what everybody wants! (Tongue in cheek.)

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Davidmorehead
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   Posted 10/11/2007 8:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
But the reason so much of MakeMusic's resources goes into playback is because that is what everybody wants! (Tongue in cheek.)

Zuill

I love all the playback features they are adding. But, I now know that every new feature has the potential to break an old feature. So, now I don't know what to wish for. After seeing some of the posts about more 2008 bugs I don't know if I will ever use it. I may be using 2006 for a very long time. At least it works.  


David Morehead
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Tim Rowland
...Rowland...Rowland, though the streams are...



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   Posted 10/11/2007 9:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I spend most my concert band rehearsals sitting up the back on tuba counting mistakes in parts. lol  Though, you'd think with tuba parts it would be hard to make publishing mistakes since there are so few notes :)
 
Things have changed in the past 20ish years. In my final year of high school (1990) I did music, and although we were lucky enough to use computers (Atari Notator I think) for our compositions in class, we were NOT allowed to hand in our final compositions computer printed. They HAD to be hand written. A few years later, they made it so you HAD to have them published on computer.
 
Cheers,
 
Tim
 
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 10/11/2007 10:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ebony Ivory said...

Presumably you got some comeback from the ticket income from this concert? That's what pays for the paper, the shipping, and - with any luck - your time and creative input!

Brian



actually, no.

Composers RARELY get money from ticket sales, unless they themselves were the concert producer/promoter.
I've actually never heard of a composer, whose work is played on a concert programme, receiving a share of ticket sales.

If a group decides to perform one of your works, you decide if it's worth it for the the exposure to do it for a VERY minimal amount of money, or "stand by your principles" and insist on fair payment.
Well, I'm not John Williams.
I can't afford to refuse performances yet.
Even when they cost me money.

So, no, no money from the concert.
A minimal payment as "reimbursement" for score and parts preparation.
Even performance rights is a minimal amount of money (thanks to mr Bryan Adams).


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2008
currently installed: version 3.7.1 (under Win 3.11), 2006c, 2007c, 2008
Full GPO, Jazz and Big Band
Win XP

Les Éditions du Dos Blanc

Michel R. Edward

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Dave BTW
Bytheway Dave, what's your last name?



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   Posted 10/11/2007 10:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No Brian, I didn't miss your Irony.


Dave Bytheway - Desktop Finale 2008 WinXP - Laptop Finale 2008 on WinXP - Forza Lite - TGTools - Nuendo 3.2 - Wavelab 5 - RME Fireface 800

Post Edited (Dave BTW) : 10/11/2007 9:20:17 PM (GMT-5)

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 10/12/2007 5:10 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Davidmorehead said...
Zuill said...

But the reason so much of MakeMusic's resources goes into playback is because that is what everybody wants! (Tongue in cheek.)

Zuill

I love all the playback features they are adding. But, I now know that every new feature has the potential to break an old feature. So, now I don't know what to wish for. After seeing some of the posts about more 2008 bugs I don't know if I will ever use it. I may be using 2006 for a very long time. At least it works.

And that, surely, is the most important point. It's why Zuill, I and others even stick to 2005b, and many more have maxed out at 2006. It's as if there are two curves: reliablity vs. bells-and-whistles. The former curve is descending, left-to-right, while the latter is ascending. For me, the cross-over point (where reliability was still excellent (despite known bugs and niggles which could be worked around), and there are just enough features to let me write, print, playback and perform my music.

Finale 2006 added textured wallpaper (not actually printable, even to PDF files, and therefore simple eye-candy) and studio view (ugh! I've already got CakeWalk, thanks), but broke printing, save-as-audio, and even the qualitity of piano sounds on the built-in softsynth. Ergo, Finale 2005 is where I've been forced to stop ...

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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