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Are you concerned about Finale bugs, and agree to join an email campaign?
7
Absolutely, yes - 22.6%
11
I can work around the bugs and I'm happy - 35.5%
10
I seldom find bugs - 32.3%
3
I never find bugs - 9.7%

 
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Dilworth
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   Posted 12/28/2007 12:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would like everyone to cool down a bit. First, I am definitely not trying to damage MakeMusic. Trust me. I just want to wake them up.

Second, I do not put bizarre layers on my patches; my example was only to make it easy to demonstrate the problem. I have layers in many instruments, especially the brass. If I write a passage for trombones in mp, and HP plays that passage with key velocities that trigger the f waveform, this is not good. That is what I meant by "does not work". No human would play it that way.

"HP recognizes mf and f as dynamic changes" is not enough. There are also timbre changes. That is the point here. Not only does Finale not take care of that, it disables the tools I have used. Is that "Human Playback"? Perhaps for some of you, but not for me.

The gentleman who did not find the problem with lyrics in places other than verse 1, because he only uses verse 1, has obviously not tested the issue. It is easy to test. Start Finale. Start a new score, default document. Enter some notes. open the Lyrics tool, and select Section 1. Type some words. Click Edit lyrics, and look at Section 1. Empty. More than 10 years with this bug. Ugh.

I feel a little threatened at this point by people who say 'If Finale crashed 10 times before lunch for most users then MakeMusic would be out of business." So I ran a little test.

9:20 AM. Load simple score for clarinet and piano. Use the spacebar playback, start and stop many times. No problem. This is the experience of people like the gentleman I quoted. He is not wrong, just uninformed.

10:01 AM. Load a challenging score: SATB chorus, lots of splits, 539 measures, and patch changes on almost every note (for the vocal phonemes). Turn on the Chase from measure 1 option. Start playback near the end of the piece. Box pops up saying MIDI device is in use, try later. Close box. It pops up again. Close again. Repeat about 15 times. Box goes away. Click to start playback. No response. Green line at left measure, doesn't move. Click playback controls. No response. Click to close Finale. No response. open Windows Task Manager and tell it to end Finale. No response. Reboot PC.

10:03 AM. Start Finale, load same music. Hangs again. The scrub playback still works, but the playback controls don't.

10:06 AM. Start Finale, load again. Turn off Chase option. Spacebar playback works just fine. Turn on Chase option. Try to play. Crash.

10:08 AM: Restart Finale, load score. Turn on Chase option. Crash.

Does anyone still ridicule the notion that it crashes 10 times before lunch? Okay, I can just turn off the Chase option -- which I do -- and the crashes are less frequent; none in this short test. But I have seen them too. The problem is that if I am the only one reporting this bug, it will never get fixed.

I do write nice letters to MakeMusic, listing bugs. They reply politely, but few things are fixed. Those who claim that they have got good response and attention to bugs have obviously not experienced my problems. MM has written to me saying that they put their energy into problems that many users report. If I am the only person challenging the program this way, there is not going to be much improvement.

The hard part seems to be to convince others that there is a problem. I suspect that MM can fix it in a day once I get their attention. So far I have not. It does not help if users whose work habits do not trigger these problems insist that the problems do not exist. They do.
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Tyler
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   Posted 12/28/2007 12:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Okay, let's go through these.

Dilworth said...


Second, I do not put bizarre layers on my patches; my example was only to make it easy to demonstrate the problem. I have layers in many instruments, especially the brass. If I write a passage for trombones in mp, and HP plays that passage with key velocities that trigger the f waveform, this is not good. That is what I meant by "does not work". No human would play it that way.


First, for what you're trying to do with GigaStudio and dynamics, it may make more sense to map patches to a controller OTHER than key velocity. I used to do this all the time using the modwheel, and that approach allows you to switch patches without being limited to a small range of volume for each patch. But more importantly, have you set HP up so that it works the way you want to work? In the HP settings, did you tell it to not control dynamics via key velocity? Your problem here isn't with bugginess, but with learning how to use the system effectively.


Dilworth said...

The gentleman who did not find the problem with lyrics in places other than verse 1, because he only uses verse 1, has obviously not tested the issue. It is easy to test. Start Finale. Start a new score, default document. Enter some notes. open the Lyrics tool, and select Section 1. Type some words. Click Edit lyrics, and look at Section 1. Empty. More than 10 years with this bug. Ugh.


I've tried your steps a second time, and so far it doesn't do what you say. Would you please try following your steps again, and if it happens, report the exact version of Finale you're using?

Dilworth said...
Box pops up saying MIDI device is in use, try later.


Well.... that's your first clue that something might not be normal.... I don't think most people are seeing that, regardless of what measure they play from or whether or not they are chasing from the beginning. If you're getting an error message about your MIDI hardware not being ready, perhaps that can suggest some actions for you to explore in order to narrow it down.

Post Edited (Tyler) : 12/28/2007 10:50:13 AM (GMT-6)

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Dan Powers
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   Posted 12/28/2007 1:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dilworth said...

The gentleman who did not find the problem with lyrics in places other than verse 1, because he only uses verse 1, has obviously not tested the issue. It is easy to test. Start Finale. Start a new score, default document. Enter some notes. open the Lyrics tool, and select Section 1. Type some words. Click Edit lyrics, and look at Section 1. Empty. More than 10 years with this bug. Ugh.
I wasn't aware of this bug, so I tried it. I created a small vocal part, entered notes, added lyrics in section 1. Then I clicked on "Edit Lyrics," and there they were. On my system, at least, this feature seems to be working perfectly.
I also tried the spacebar-click version of playback on a somewhat complex orchestral score and experienced no crashes. (Granted, I only tried it 10 times, not 40, but since I don't remember this method ever causing a system crash, I kind of lost interest in continuing.)


Dan Powers
"It's easier to think outside the box if you know what's in the box." --Dave Grusin

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Ron.
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   Posted 12/28/2007 1:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dilworth said...
Okay, it seems that many users have never encountered some of the bugs I mentioned. This doesn't mean they don't exist. It could mean you haven't tried them.

1. Enter some lyrics, specifying Section 1 (or any other section). Look where they went. Not Section1. I have many vocal staves and want to keep the lyrics separate for easier editing and to avoid bugs that show up when you delete measures with lyrics. If they are all in the same place (verse 1 for example) many screwups occur, words on the wrong notes, and so on.

2. Use the spacebar playback to listen to a score. Click in the score to stop it. Do this 20 times and report whether it stopped each time without crashing. If you succeed, then there may indeed be a problem somewhere else -- but all my Finale PC is doing is playing back and sending the MIDI data to a set of designated MIDI ports. I tried disabling those ports, so Finale was not sending the data anywhere -- and it still crashed frequently. You are welcome to visit my studio and watch it crash. Then tell me if I am making it up. (It does not crash if you use the playback controls -- so maybe that is why some folks think this problem does not exist.)

3. Build a patch where the mf sound is a nice violin, and the f sound is something much different. Put the layer break at a key velocity of 65 and give the notes an mf dynamic of 64. Then try the HP feature. You don't get the mf sound, even though it is marked.

I suspect that the work habits of many users go the same way as the programmers and testers, so things look fine to them. My only sin is to use features I need. Try using new features in new ways. Be creative.

I do not want to flame, annoy, or damage MakeMusic. I want bugs fixed. I have sent them many very nice letters listing lots of bugs. I always try to be nice. They have ignored me. What to do?


Of course these problems exist for you, but that does not mean that they are "bugs." I have tried out your three scenarios with the following results:

1. Yes, lyrics can get mixed up if you start deleting lyrics, measures, or music. Why wouldn't they? They are tied to notes and if those notes disappear, what is Finale supposed to do? Read your mind? The easiest way to store lyrics so they can be edited and quickly put back in a score is to use "click-entry."

2. Spacebar-click for playback does not crash my computer--no matter how many times I do it.

3. This one makes no sense to me at all. Why on earth would you load different patches for different volumes? You just need one patch: violin. Put your dynamics on it and HP will play them back as entered.

I know you have been using Finale for a long time, but perhaps it is time you went through the tutorials and read the help manual. Things have changed and doing things in awkward, time-wasting, and unnecessary steps when there are simple solutions does not, in my book, justify calling something a "bug," demanding that MM fix it, and writing nasty letters to publications.


Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com

Finale 2008a, full GPO & JABB
Win XP/Pro, 2.7 GHz processor, 2 Gb RAM

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/28/2007 2:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
While I agree that Dilworth is overreacting, "I can't reproduce your bugs, so you must be lying/crazy/something-else-that's-your-fault" doesn't really wash. It's undeniable that Finale is so complicated and the user interface so convoluted that one can get into trouble quite easily. If that then results in unexpected behavior, that's a bug, no quotes needed. The way lyrics work is indeed bizarre, and I've gotten into trouble trying to make the smallest change, such as fixing a typo. If that then results in lyrics disappearing or popping up on other notes, how is that not a bug?

It's also true that well-known and oft-reported bugs survive from version to version, which is pretty hard to defend. MM has not gotten my update money for the last few versions because I am constantly in production and I know that an upgrade will require hours or days of unproductive screwing around as I encounter the new bugs and inconsistencies. I love Finale and the results I'm able to achieve, and would love to take advantage of the new features, but I'm afraid to.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 12/28/2007 2:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
motet said...
While I agree that Dilworth is overreacting, "I can't reproduce your bugs, so you must be lying/crazy/something-else-that's-your-fault" doesn't really wash. It's undeniable that Finale is so complicated and the user interface so convoluted that one can get into trouble quite easily. If that then results in unexpected behavior, that's a bug, no quotes needed. The way lyrics work is indeed bizarre, and I've gotten into trouble trying to make the smallest change, such as fixing a typo. If that then results in lyrics disappearing or popping up on other notes, how is that not a bug?

It's also true that well-known and oft-reported bugs survive from version to version, which is pretty hard to defend. MM has not gotten my update money for the last few versions because I am constantly in production and I know that an upgrade will require hours or days of unproductive screwing around as I encounter the new bugs and inconsistencies. I love Finale and the results I'm able to achieve, and would love to take advantage of the new features, but I'm afraid to.


The problem is not with someone asking if something is a bug.
Or requesting confirmation from others regarding behaviour that might be related to a bug.

The problem is that some people come on here and rant about how Finale isn't doing what it's supposed to do, only to demonstrate that they either do not understand the function they are applying, or are demanding a function that is not actually AVAILABLE in Finale.

BTW, regarding the underlined passage in your post, have you tried updating to Finale 2008a? I don't know what prompted you to remain with Finale 2005, but I had two extremely productive years with Finale 2006, never used 2007 because of playback issues, and am now using Finale 2008 VERY productively.

I have had no crashes during playback of scores upwards of 500 measures long, involving 8 instances of the Kontakt Player, in a score with a minimum of 30 staves.


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2008a
currently installed: version 3.7.1 (under Win 3.11), 2006c, 2007c, 2008a
Full GPO, Jazz and Big Band
Win XP

Les Éditions du Dos Blanc

Michel R. Edward

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Tyler
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   Posted 12/28/2007 3:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just Ron said...


3. This one makes no sense to me at all. Why on earth would you load different patches for different volumes?


Because you can have different samples recorded from the same instrument at different volume levels. Many sample libraries will for example use a different sample for a piano at a low key velocity than they do for a piano at a higher key velocity. The principle is fine, but for most instruments (not piano), I've always found it better to retain control over which samples I'm triggering at a given time via some controller other than velocity or volume. In this way I can adjust the overall volume level via key velocity without having to worry about it switching patches on me when I don't want it to. It also opens the door for allowing key velocity to control a finer aspect of the timbre by way of adjusting a lowpass filter.

The bottom line is that he has the tools with Giga and Finale to do what he needs... he just has to learn how to use the system to do what he wants.
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Ron.
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   Posted 12/28/2007 3:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
motet said...
While I agree that Dilworth is overreacting, "I can't reproduce your bugs, so you must be lying/crazy/something-else-that's-your-fault" doesn't really wash.


That was neither stated nor implied.

A "bug" that is not reproducible is not a "bug;" it is a problem specific to a setup or to a user and should be addressed as such.


Ron, composer
www.RonaldJBrown.com

Finale 2008a, full GPO & JABB
Win XP/Pro, 2.7 GHz processor, 2 Gb RAM

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BopEuph
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   Posted 12/28/2007 3:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is a quote from a composing forum:
Somebody said...
The biggest difference between something like Finale or Sibelius and something like Cubase or SONAR is that the latter two are designed for MIDI work and the former are designed for music print work. As a copyist, obviously you'd be familiar with the print suites and Finale and Sibelius' strong points are that they can produce nice, print-worthy sheet music.

Cubase and SONAR suck at this, they can do sheet music like Finale can do MIDI editing. Their strong point is music production and the integration of MIDI signals and audio tracks, post and pre effects, virtual instruments, and recording interfaces. They are, in short, called DAWs or Digital Audio Workstations because they do almost everything you need to compose, produce, and record music. They do not print pretty sheet music.


I always figured that Finale's playback function was to pretty much hear what you're writing just so you can get bearings on what's going on. It wasn't really designed to produce high quality music recordings. If I wanted to really go through and add stuff here and there for playback for whatever reason, I think it might be more productive to get a MIDI editing software like Sonar, save the .mus files as MIDI files, import them into a DAW, and go from there. I might get into something like this, and this is how I would do it.

Nick
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Jetcopy
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   Posted 12/28/2007 3:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
motet said...
I love Finale and the results I'm able to achieve, and would love to take advantage of the new features, but I'm afraid to.


I'm curious about this statement. The version of Finale you use, 2005, has bugs. As does every other version of Finale and all other software. Obviously whatever bugs exist in 2005, don't affect you or you have workarounds for them. Since it's safe to assume that all future versions of Finale also will have bugs, do you ever see yourself upgrading? Or what new feature would make you upgrade? There have been many windows users reporting about their positive experience with 2008a. You can purchase the upgrade and get your money back in 30 days if you're dissatisfied. Why not give it a try?

JT


G4 Powerbook, OSX 10.4.8, 1.67 GHz, 1.5 GB ram

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Peter West
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   Posted 12/28/2007 4:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
QcCowboy said...
BTW, regarding the underlined passage in your post, have you tried updating to Finale 2008a? I don't know what prompted you to remain with Finale 2005, but I had two extremely productive years with Finale 2006... ...and am now using Finale 2008 VERY productively.


I agree 100%. Generally (because, like motet I work full time on Finale) I order my new copy and shelve it to get a feel from the forum where the main problems might be, then when I feel sure that the new version is safe to commit work to I install it and play with for an hour or two. From there on in it's usually up to speed instantly. 2008 was slightly different. Combining selection tool and mass edit probably caused me to loose a couple of hours reprogramming QuicKeys shortcuts.

The thought of using 2005 for commercial work horrifies me. 2006-2008 have had so many new features that save immeasurable amounts of time that working in 2005 seems like a huge step into the past. Sure some of the marketable features seem like gimmicks, but the advances in basic function are enormous. And, as has been pointed out, many bugs were dealt with in 2008a.


Peter
Music Publishing Services

*********************
Mac 2.66GHz Intel Quad, 4GB RAM /OSX.5.1 /30 inch cinema display+20 inch Cinema Display
Finale 2008a/Logic Pro Studio/Komplete/GPO/Kore 2/Max.msp (and you though Finale had a steep learning curve!!)/Pluggo

Web site: http://web.mac.com/p.west/iWeb/Koros/Welcome.html
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Dilworth
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   Posted 12/28/2007 4:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have seen some positive statements here, and many misinterpretations of what I said and meant. I will try to clarify.

1. I do not use HP at all, for the reasons I cited; reading a manual is not useful in that context. Instead of turning off individual features that cause problems, it is easier just to turn off the whole thing. I actually think the HP feature was a feather in the cap of Finale, just not good enough for my needs.

2. I do not use velocity switching between patches, and never said so. For each instrument, I have layers in a single patch that switch waveforms according to velocity, and with several layers this is very realistic. My brass (played on Giga) is mellow or brassy depending on the velocity. I have programmed the dynamics and crescendos to give the velocities I need, and the results are excellent on Giga: beautiful nuanced performances. I tried the piece with HP, to see how it would compare. All the sounds were then the brassy sort, even in quiet passages. Is it wrong to suggest that this is not good, or is it somehow my fault? I emulate legato passages with a delay of the note-off message, and articulated passages with a shorter duration. Sounds beautiful and convincing. But HP articulates every note according to its rules, not mine. That's the kind of result I would rather avoid. So I don't use it.

3. Strange that nobody reproduced the lyrics bug. I had the same response from CS once, until I walked them through the steps. You have to exit from Finale first, since my first step was to start Finale. Those who don't follow instructions will not find the problem. I just tried it again, and it failed exactly as I said. After I walked the CS guy through it, it failed for him too, and he was astonished. Said he would get it fixed. That was years ago.

4. I want to comment on my suggestion that people should be creative. I believe I am using Finale in a way that nobody else is. When you think out of the box, push the envelope, and try things nobody ever tried before, that's when you find bugs. Did those of you who could not get the playback to crash test it on a score where every note has a patch change? I'll bet not. Simple things work. If I am the only one pushing the envelope, and the only one finding these bugs, then MM won't get the many requests to fix them that is their criterion for action. That is precisely why I started this thread. To get others on board.

Here's a test to see how creative you folks are: Record a vocal score entirely with synthesized sounds, where the singer sounds like a singer and you can understand the words. No dubbing a live singer. How many of you can do it? If you cannot, then are you qualified to say I'm not being creative in what I am doing? I challenge each of you to figure out a way, if you can.

I can. Visit my site at www.dilworthmusic.com and listen to some of the opera or song excerpts. It's not perfect, and Placido will not lose his job. Some passages will make you laugh. But others are so realistic it's scary. I call that creative.

But doing it stresses Finale to the breaking point, apparently. Still, I did everything according to the manual. If you follow the manual and it crashes, in my book that's a bug. It's a pity nobody else is exploring this new territory.
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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/28/2007 5:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, 2005 has bugs, but I'm used to them. When I upgraded from 2004, which I did because of improved tuplets, there was a certain learning curve. There have been numerous bugs reported with newer versions here, and there's a good chance I will encounter a few more, since everyone's working style and application is different. Also, the user interface has changed in a not-upwardly-compatible way. For example, I have keyboard macros which set up various versions of Mass Edit copying. It sounds like that will break. Not that the new way isn't better, but it will take a fair amount of screwing around, cursing, and posting here with questions to adapt to the new interface and new bugs and get back to a smooth workflow.

Since it sounds like the implementation of linked parts is half-baked, about the only feature I've heard about I want is the ability to leave certain measures out of numbering, which I would use when stitching two measure together to look like one for a mid-measure key- or time-signature change. Hardly worth the trouble to upgrade for that. Garritan and movie-score tools I couldn't care less about.

Is 2008 likely to run well on my aging 1.3GHz Pentium-4 with 640MB of memory, if I eschew the Garritan stuff?


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

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Wlgold
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   Posted 12/28/2007 5:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
motet said...


Is 2008 likely to run well on my aging 1.3GHz Pentium-4 with 640MB of memory, if I eschew the Garritan stuff?


It runs just fine on my 1.15GHz AMD Athlon. The only reason I have 1GB of memory is for the Garritan stuff. I wouldn't need it otherwise.


Finale 2008a, XP Pro, 1GB, full GPO, JABB

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/28/2007 5:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dilworth said...

4. I want to comment on my suggestion that people should be creative. I believe I am using Finale in a way that nobody else is. When you think out of the box, push the envelope, and try things nobody ever tried before, that's when you find bugs. Did those of you who could not get the playback to crash test it on a score where every note has a patch change? I'll bet not. Simple things work. If I am the only one pushing the envelope, and the only one finding these bugs, then MM won't get the many requests to fix them that is their criterion for action. That is precisely why I started this thread. To get others on board.

So: You are using a product to do something it wasn't designed to do, and complaining that it's defective when it doesn't do it the way you want.
 
People like you are the reason that lawnmowers have warning labels, so that the manufacturer is covered when you pick it up to use it as a hedge trimmer.
 
Sorry, no sympathy here.
 
 


Mike Rosen
 
WebLackey for the Seattle SeaChordsmen
 
PrintMusic 2006 on the PC: Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.
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Favorite reference: Essential Dictionary of Music Notation, Gerou & Lusk, 1996
 
"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 12/28/2007 6:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
Dilworth said...


4. I want to comment on my suggestion that people should be creative. I believe I am using Finale in a way that nobody else is. When you think out of the box, push the envelope, and try things nobody ever tried before, that's when you find bugs. Did those of you who could not get the playback to crash test it on a score where every note has a patch change? I'll bet not. Simple things work. If I am the only one pushing the envelope, and the only one finding these bugs, then MM won't get the many requests to fix them that is their criterion for action. That is precisely why I started this thread. To get others on board.

So: You are using a product to do something it wasn't designed to do, and complaining that it's defective when it doesn't do it the way you want.


People like you are the reason that lawnmowers have warning labels, so that the manufacturer is covered when you pick it up to use it as a hedge trimmer.



Sorry, no sympathy here.



I couldn't have said that better.
Thank-you for expressing my thoughts in this context so clearly.
Bravo.

I particularly like the lawnmower analogy.


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2008a
currently installed: version 3.7.1 (under Win 3.11), 2006c, 2007c, 2008a
Full GPO, Jazz and Big Band
Win XP

Les Éditions du Dos Blanc

Michel R. Edward

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 12/28/2007 6:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
motet said...

Since it sounds like the implementation of linked parts is half-baked, about the only feature I've heard about I want is the ability to leave certain measures out of numbering, which I would use when stitching two measure together to look like one for a mid-measure key- or time-signature change. Hardly worth the trouble to upgrade for that. Garritan and movie-score tools I couldn't care less about.

Yes, there will be a learning curve, because a lot has changed since your version. And the longer you wait, the greater that learning curve will be. But there are so many little things that have been implemented that should speed up your workflow.

Quickchange, the ability to change any expression or articulation tto another one by double tapping the metatool. You can change one at a time or several. The newauto note/stem side articulation. The part/score name insert is wonderful once you get used to it.

Yes, linked parts need more refinements to be completely useable for many of us. I still extract 99% of the time. But linked parts are invaluable to me prior to extraction, you can quickly toggle thru your linked parts, giving them a fast look. Let's say you have your part layout set to have 9 staves appear on page one of each part. But you notice that in your woodwind and string parts, you need a tighter layout. You can choose one woodwind part, tighten up the system spacing to allow for an extra system on each page, then with a single keystroke you apply that specific layout to only the woodwinds and strings. Then when you actually extract parts, this layout stays intact from how it appeared in the linked parts.

Little things like this are the reason that I think you should give it a try.

JT


G4 Powerbook, OSX 10.4.8, 1.67 GHz, 1.5 GB ram

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Motet
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   Posted 12/28/2007 6:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, thanks for the nudge, JT. Over the past few months, as I've read people posting problems here, I've said to myself (or aloud) several times, "one more reason not to upgrade." Has someone collected these into a list somewhere so I'll know what to expect? For obvious reasons, I know MM doesn't publicize such a thing.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

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ShowPan2512
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   Posted 12/28/2007 9:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Qc you play World of Warcraft.  I downloaded the trial version.  I just don't get it.  Is it a game where players run around killing each other.  I like somthing about it, what that is I am not sure. I would like to chat with someone who do play before I purchase the game.  Feel free to PM me.
QcCowboy said...
I agree wholeheartedly!
whenever I'm running Finale and chatting on MS Messenger and trying to watch a WMV file at the same time while working on some PDF docs in Adobe and playing World of Warcraft online at the same time, Finale just slows down to a crawl! It's completely unacceptable.


Samantha Penigar
Finale 2007c, Garritan Personal Orchestra, Sonar Home Studio 6 XL
HP Media Center XP, 2.8gHz processor, 2GB Ram, 300GB Harddrive
Sennheiser HD 280 pro earphones.
 

The opinions in this reply are the express opinions of the writer.  They in no way reflect the overall opinions of other forum members.  You can take them or you can leave them, but you can not change them.  It is an inalienable right to express one's opinion.  I have just expressed mine.

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Daz
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   Posted 12/28/2007 11:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dilworth said...
"HP recognizes mf and f as dynamic changes" is not enough. There are also timbre changes. That is the point here. Not only does Finale not take care of that, it disables the tools I have used. Is that "Human Playback"? Perhaps for some of you, but not for me.


Hi

The way that you're using Finale and HP is, as you yourself put it, pushing the envelope.
The problem here is that you seem to be trying to use stock techniques to achieve what you want. This is similar to trying to create a master oil painting with standard paints, but not actually using a palette to mix those standard paints to create new hues. You will create a painting, but lacking in some areas.

HP has been programmed with three things: 1) Awareness and techniques specific to the Garritan Libraries. 2) Awareness and techniques specific to General Midi. 3 (and importantly to you in your case) the ability to create new techniques specific to the users needs coupled with the ability to customize how HP interacts with other libraries.

HP works well with the Garritan libraries, or with standard GM midi.
It works well with the Garritan libraries because it has been programmed to use the features built in to those libraries.
It also works well with GM because it knows all about GM.

Standard techniques will not work well with Giga, because it has no information about the specifics of Giga. For HP to handle Giga well, you will need to create techniques and expressions to get Giga to work the way you want. You will also need to change the default playback setting to stop HP from defaulting to Garritan specific techniques.

If you find that using the standard 'f' expression does not behave the way you require, stop using the standard expression and create a new one which will do exactly what you want. You can do this both in the expression list and by creating new techniques in HP playback settings.

If you encounter stumbling blocks with expressions and techniques that you have created, then pose a question here on the forum. You will be bound to get a reply.

cheers...


Daz. :o)

------------------------
Finale 2006,2007,2008 - WinXP

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Tyler
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   Posted 12/29/2007 1:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dilworth said...
Did those of you who could not get the playback to crash test it on a score where every note has a patch change? I'll bet not.


I created a test score with over 1000 measures and over 400,000 notes, complete with a patch change on every note. I then used spacebar playback with chase from first measure 20 times from after measure 500. No crashes.

I also followed every step you've given us for the lyric issue, and as of yet it hasn't happened (and I DID restart Finale each time I tested it). How about instead of insulting us by saying we didn't follow your steps, why don't you give us real steps, including what menu items you click, any keypresses you used, exactly which version of Finale, and so on?
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Tyler
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   Posted 12/29/2007 2:21 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dilworth said...

Here's a test to see how creative you folks are: Record a vocal score entirely with synthesized sounds, where the singer sounds like a singer and you can understand the words. No dubbing a live singer. How many of you can do it? If you cannot, then are you qualified to say I'm not being creative in what I am doing? I challenge each of you to figure out a way, if you can.


Do you realize there are products available that do this (and which can be automated to some extent)? East West makes some. Of course, that's just one approach. You can also go with something like the Virtual Singer.
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Davidmorehead
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   Posted 12/29/2007 2:28 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter West said...

I agree 100%. Generally (because, like motet I work full time on Finale) I order my new copy and shelve it to get a feel from the forum where the main problems might be, then when I feel sure that the new version is safe to commit work to I install it and play with for an hour or two.
Isn't it a shame that it has to be this way? Every time I upgrade other major software I am excited to use new features. When I bought Finale 2008, I found out within a minute of using the program that it was unusable for the way I work. Then, I thought to myself. Well, it may only be a short while before they fix their glaring error. Then, I waited, and waited, and waited. Finally, 4 months later Makemusic fixed the error bundled with all the other fixes. And boy there were many. You can look at this two ways.
 
Wow, they fixed so many bugs!
 
Or,
 
Oh my God, there were that many bugs in the software and they still released it to the public. Shame on them.
 
You decide your standpoint.
 
Unfortunately, I had to wait four months to be able to create a duplet & triplet in speedy entry. (Because I didn't want to install a third party marco program.) Stubborn? Maybe a little, but why should I have to install more software that could potentionally scew up my system just to cover up a mistake that should have never happaned. It still amazes me to this day that no one noticed the control 123 problem for laptop users. It kinda makes be think that none of the beta testers used a laptop. I hope that is not true. Luckily, I had 2006 to revert back to so I never bothered opening 2008 again until the update. I am still using 2006 until I hear many more reports that 2008a is stable.  
 
My main point is, when is Makemusic going to get back to real quality control and give us confidence to use a new version right from the start? We shouldn't have to be afraid to install a new version. We should be excited about it. 2007 and 2008 had people running scared. Let's hope 2009 is rock solid from the first day of its release. I did learn something from 2008. Don't buy 2009 until you read that it is OK. In the future, I am not letting Makemusic have my money until they live up to their end of the deal. They got me this last time. I won't let that happen again.



David Morehead
Finale 2006 on a Sony Laptop
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Peter West
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   Posted 12/29/2007 4:00 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
David, you're right, there are more than one way of looking at the issues and it is sad that it has to be this way. To create a better perspective I don't only do this with Finale. I waited 3 months before installing Logic Studio. In this case I regretted the wait. With MAX/MSP I installed 4.6 only to find that some patches created in 4.5 would cause the application to crashes before they opened and can find no reason for it. I have had to reinstall 4.5 just to continue working.

This is not purely a MakeMusic problem, it is an inherent problem in the complexity of current programming methods and market pressure. If Finale had the user base of say Photoshop, then it would provide sufficient revenue to considerably increase the development team, but even Photoshop has bugs. I doubt you will find a user group for any software that contradicts this statement.

All tools have their limits, and if there are limited choice too, then you have to weigh up the pros and cons and make your choice. With software some people dive in and yell and scream, others sit back until we know exactly what the yelling and screaming is really about. While the developers must take responsibility for their releases, we too must take responsibility for our decisions and live with our choices, whatever they may be.


Peter
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Finale 2008a/Logic Pro Studio/Komplete/GPO/Kore 2/Max.msp (and you though Finale had a steep learning curve!!)/Pluggo

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Davidmorehead
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   Posted 12/29/2007 4:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter West said...
 
All tools have their limits, and if there are limited choice too, then you have to weigh up the pros and cons and make your choice. With software some people dive in and yell and scream, others sit back until we know exactly what the yelling and screaming is really about. While the developers must take responsibility for their releases, we too must take responsibility for our decisions and live with our choices, whatever they may be.

Our choice is to give companies money. If we decide to stop doing that, no more company. I can live with Finale's minor bugs. I have for 17 years. 2008 crippled speedy entry for laptop users. They should have fixed that within a week. Not 4 months. I was fuming for the first month and then gave up. I figured, why stress over their lackadaisical customer service. It's not worth it. It was their choice to bundle all the fixes together. I think it was a bad choice. If I was new to Finale and didn't have a previous version to revert to I would have demanded my money back. 
 
By the way, I have used Photoshop for close to ten years and I have yet to find one bug or have one crash. Just wanted to throw in my personal experience. I currently have CS2. I hear there are many problems with CS3 so I will stay clear of that until they kinks are ironed out. Hey, that sounds familiar. lol devil


David Morehead
Finale 2006 on a Sony Laptop
DaveMorehead.com

Post Edited (Davidmorehead) : 12/29/2007 2:28:17 AM (GMT-6)

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