Finale SmartMusic
  Home | Log In | Register | Search | Help
   
MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > New Clefs for Treble 15ma and Bass 15mb  Forum Quick Jump
 
You cannot post new topics in this forum. You cannot reply to topics in this forum. Printable Version
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

Benjamin Tubb
Registered Member



Click to send Benjamin Tubb email.Click to visit Benjamin Tubb's website.Send a Private Message to Benjamin TubbAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jan 2000
Total Posts : 903
 
   Posted 1/18/2008 12:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is any one familiar with these special clef symbols used in any scores which you've seen? If so, do you know their origin, and what composers/publishers use them, and the 1/4 and 3/4 tones flat/sharp symbols. All are shown in a TIF file which I wanted to post but was unable due to a server stack exception "invalidid parameter" error when trying to upload it! If interested, I'll email the small 9K TIF file to you. You can email me at [email protected].
 
 
 
 
 


Benjamin Tubb, Finale Engraver
F2K8a with Windows XP Pro
Webmaster of Public Domain Music (www.pdmusic.org)
Editor and Compiler of
Henry Clay Work: Complete Songs and Choruses
(Kallisti Music Press, 2002)

Back to Top

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Click to send Peter Thomsen email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Peter ThomsenAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331
 
   Posted 1/21/2008 10:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the PDF file.
Some of these symbols are new to me.

I haven't before seen the Stiller font's 1/4 flat and 3/4 flat symbols.
They are, however, easy to create in the Shape Designer.

The Stiller font's 1/4 sharp symbol can also be found in the Maestro Percussion font (it's character #181).
And in the Toccata font (character #135).

The Stiller font's 3/4 sharp symbol can also be found in the Maestro Percussion font (it's character #247).
And in the Toccata font (character #136).

The Stiller font's 15ma treble clef symbol is new to me, and its meaning isn't obvious.
However, I understand the graphic idea:
The clef symbol is loosely based on two G clef symbols, one of them horizontally flipped.

The Stiller font's 15mb bass clef symbol is also new to me, and its meaning isn't obvious.
It's beautiful, but I don't even understand the graphic idea???
It's not based on two F clef symbols, one of them horizontally flipped.
The vertical line through the 15mb bass clef symbol reminds me of the vertical line through the "Cut Time" (2/2 time) symbol.

The symbols for Male and Female are well known to me.
I don't think I have seen them in any of my fonts, but they are easy to create in the Shape Designer.

Again, thanks for the file.
The symbols are interesting.
Unfortunately I neither know their origin, nor what composers/publishers use them.

Peter


Mac Finale 2006d, 2007c & 2008a, Dolet 3.5 plug-in, Mac OS X 10.4.11, iMac Intel Core 2 Duo, 2.16 GHz, 2 GB RAM

Post Edited (Peter Thomsen) : 1/23/2008 12:15:39 AM (GMT-6)



File Attachment :
Special_Symbols.PDF   25KB (application/pdf)
This file has been downloaded 353 time(s).
Back to Top

trb456
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to trb456AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 14
 
   Posted 1/21/2008 12:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I believe these clefs were invented by composer Andrew Stiller in his book, Handbook of Instrumentation (1985).  They are described in Appendix I on page 477 of my copy.  His quarter-tone symbols appear on page 4.

Andrew Stiller's home page: http://www.kallistimusic.com/Stiller.html

Back to Top

Benjamin Tubb
Registered Member



Click to send Benjamin Tubb email.Click to visit Benjamin Tubb's website.Send a Private Message to Benjamin TubbAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jan 2000
Total Posts : 903
 
   Posted 1/21/2008 7:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks "trb465"! I indeed have a CDROM copy of Stiller's book, but hadn't read every page of it <g>. Apparently he originated those two clefs as he doesn't mention any other source for them. In any case, I find them quite useful, and as to clefs in general, I stopped using the "moveable C clef" years ago in favor of the Treble 8vb clef which besides being used for the guitar (and the Bass 8vb cleff for bass guitar and contrabass / "double bass"), could just as well be used for the Viola since it alone is the primary user of it. The other Moveable C clefs are virtually obsolete anyway IMHO. As to the two Percussion Clefs which Finale includes, I presume the first is more of a standard? In any case, I've opted to us it for drum sets, and the second ("smaller") percussion clef symbol, for single percussion players (mostly).
 
 


Benjamin Tubb, Finale Engraver
F2K8a with Windows XP Pro
Webmaster of Public Domain Music (www.pdmusic.org)
Editor and Compiler of
Henry Clay Work: Complete Songs and Choruses
(Kallisti Music Press, 2002)

Back to Top

trb456
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to trb456AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Apr 2005
Total Posts : 14
 
   Posted 1/23/2008 7:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I agree that these Stiller clefs seem useful, and that the C clef seems archaic--to composers.  But last time I checked, most performers are taught all the old lessons.  I'm a bassoonist, and I know tenor clef.  I suspect all bassoonists, and trombonists, learn tenor clef once they reach a certain level.  And unless old scores are re-engraved without tenor, we need to learn it.  Also, flauists just learn how to read a gazillion ledger lines above the staff, and tubists a skillion lines below.  They just learn to read this way.  I, for one, think high bassoon written in treble is weird.  I'd be very confused sight-reading.  But this is just how I was taught.

Until students are taught, at a very early age, to use these more sensible clefs (treble and bass only, in 8va, 8vb, 15ma, and 15mv transpositions), it won't become standard.  And re-engraving all the old music.  Big project.

Have no violists threatened your life for using treble instead of alto? ;-) Good violists know treble, but it's like tenor for a bassoon: high notes only.  Using tenor for low notes on bassoon is also weird, as is using treble for viola on low notes.

Back to Top

fcopaja
Registered Member



Click to send fcopaja email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to fcopajaAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableClick to Add fcopaja@hotmail.com to your MSN Buddy List.
Date Joined Jun 1999
Total Posts : 526
 
   Posted 9/1/2010 3:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter, the 15ma bass clef looks like an upside down treble clef :)


Felipe Copaja
Finale 2008
Intel DuoCore 1,6 GHz - 1280 MB
Windows XP SP2

Back to Top

Flint
silly bear



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to FlintAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151
 
   Posted 9/1/2010 6:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, well, well, someone had to create a reason for a term paper... really, 15ma clefs?


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011! using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

Back to Top

Michel R. E.
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Michel R. E.AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430
 
   Posted 9/1/2010 8:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
because the old (ie: standard) notation was just so defective.


Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher

Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2011
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010, 2011
GPO 4, Garritan J&BB 3, CoMBand, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello
Xsamples chamber Ensemble
Win XP

join us on
Compose Forums

Back to Top
You cannot post new topics in this forum. You cannot reply to topics in this forum. Printable Version
   
Forum Information
Currently it is Friday, December 4, 2020 4:06 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads