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Gareth Green
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   Posted 5/11/2011 4:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How can I force an "un-natural" key signature?
 
Specifically, I am writing for UK-Style brass band, where all instruments (except bass trom) are either Bb or Eb transposition. I need the key signature to appear as Gb maj for Bb instruments and Db maj for Eb instruments. This means in effect that the "Concert" key needs to be Fb maj (ie. 8 flats). As far as I can see, Finale does not allow this, and my only option is to use E maj. For whatever reason, Finale happily defaults to Db maj for the Eb instruments, but insists on F# maj for the Bb instruments, giving me 6 sharps, whereas I want 6 Flats.
 
I can't figure out a way to get round this. "Non-standard" key sigs doesn't seem to cover it, unless I am missing something.
 
Any ideas, please?
 
TIA
 
G.


 
Gareth J. Green
 
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Flint
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   Posted 5/11/2011 4:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I believe you need to uncheck "Simplify Key".

EDIT: Or... check it.


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If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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oldtrumpet
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   Posted 5/11/2011 5:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can someone please tell me where to find this "simplify key" check box? This has come up before but I can't find that option.

Thanks, -Bob


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Gareth Green
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   Posted 5/11/2011 5:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...
I believe you need to uncheck "Simplify Key".

EDIT: Or... check it.

Well, I kind of half-remembered that as well, but I can't actually see that option anywhere. I get the nastiest feeling I'm overlooking something really obvious here, but I can't find it at the moment ...


 
Gareth J. Green
 
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Ron.
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   Posted 5/11/2011 5:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't know about other versions, as I never use key signatures, but, in Finale 2011, Chose "Edit Key Signature" from the drop down list of standard ones, then, instead of chosing "major" or "minor", pick "non-standard." Click "non-linear key signature", then click "key map." You can then add sharps or flats to your heart's content.


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Zuill
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   Posted 5/11/2011 5:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It is in the Staff Tool settings (Staff attributes) for the given staff (each staff can be set to a different setting). Select the Transposition box. It's in there.

Zuill

P.S.: I'm not talking about Non-standard Key Signatures here. This doesn't involve that.


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Post Edited (Zuill) : 5/11/2011 4:36:12 PM (GMT-5)

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Richard Ashmore
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   Posted 5/11/2011 5:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Have you searched the User Manual for Nonstandard Key Signature?


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Zuill
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   Posted 5/11/2011 5:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not sure I understand entirely the situation. Possibly set a custom setting in the transposition as 2 and -9.

Zuill

P.S.: Since Simplify Key didn't give the result I (or you) wanted, this is what I came up with.


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Gareth Green
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   Posted 5/11/2011 5:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, found the "Simplify Key" switch, but I don't see how it helps. having it checked in the Eb instruments is what prevents them from displaying as 7 sharps and gives 5 flats instead, (given a concert Key of E major), but that doesn't change anything on the Bb instruments.

I don't see how the Non-standard key options help, either. According to the manual they are used for creating key sigs based on non-standard scale patterns, which doesn't apply here. I still can't find a way of adding more than 7 flats.

The problem with using a custom transposition setting is that the piece has multiple key changes, and the transpositions would be messed up for the other more common keys ...


 
Gareth J. Green
 
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
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Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
 
Stolichnaya Blue
 
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Zuill
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   Posted 5/11/2011 5:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For those measures, you can apply a Staff Style for the different transposition. That is an easy thing to do.

Zuill

Correction: 2 and -10 is what you need. For the staff style, use the standard setting. If the measures with the difference are more rare, then make the Staff Style the Other with 2, -10.


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
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Post Edited (Zuill) : 5/11/2011 5:03:20 PM (GMT-5)

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Zuill
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   Posted 5/11/2011 6:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I realized it will be a bit more work when I looked at the template and remembered you would have to create different Styles for those instruments that are in a lower octave and need to display treble clef. The numbers would be different. Once you set up those Styles, you can save them in a library for future use, or save the template with those styles.

Zuill

P.S.: You could use Fb as a non standard key, if you want, as long as the score won't be used in Concert View.


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
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Gareth Green
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   Posted 5/11/2011 6:31 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, thanks to everyone for their input. It's late now and my brain is transposition-scrambled, so I'm going to re-visit this in the morning.


 
Gareth J. Green
 
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Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
 
Stolichnaya Blue
 
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"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway."

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Zuill
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   Posted 5/11/2011 8:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Here's a Staff Style Library that has Staff Styles for 3 different octaves for the Bb instruments that need to show in flats instead of sharps. This works for the Bb instruments in Concert E. If you are in Concert A, it looks like you would want to do something similar for the Eb instruments.

Zuill


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Doug Blackmore
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   Posted 5/11/2011 9:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here you go:


Doug Blackmore
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diz
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   Posted 5/12/2011 12:58 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
funny you know. I first learned the clarinet, so was pretty comfortable with things coming out a whole tone lower than written (I'm cursed with perfect-pitch). Also, later, played the alto saxophone, so got fairly used to things coming out a sixth lower. So writing transposing parts for me is no challenege. What IS a bloody nightmare is trying to play Bach's Soprano clef at sight ... now THAT does my head in.


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Zuill
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   Posted 5/12/2011 1:02 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Doug,

Just one mistake: the interval needs to be 2, not 1. 1 represents up a second, 2 is up a third, which is what we are forcing here by this workaround. And by doing it as a Staff Style, we can apply it only when the concert key is E. Otherwise, the standard transposition for Bb instruments works.

Zuill


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Post Edited (Zuill) : 5/12/2011 12:20:39 AM (GMT-5)

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Gareth Green
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   Posted 5/12/2011 4:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...

Here's a Staff Style Library that has Staff Styles for 3 different octaves for the Bb instruments that need to show in flats instead of sharps. This works for the Bb instruments in Concert E. If you are in Concert A, it looks like you would want to do something similar for the Eb instruments.

Zuill


That did it; thanks very much for your help, Zuill. In fact the A maj wouldn't be a problem, since the band parts would come out in a mixture of 5 & 6 sharps. The problem for me with the 6 sharps in E maj was not so much a sharps v flats issue, but having the mixture of flats and sharps in the score. Problem for brass band conductors is that we tend to 'think' in the Bb transposed key (ie. the piece is in "Brass Band Gb maj") where the Eb instruments (and the bass trom!) are the transposing ones.

Even if I had been able to figure out how to force a key signature of Fbmaj, it wouldn't have helped because the Bass Trom would still have needed to display in E maj (which wouldn't have mattered because in brass band scoring the bass trom is always thought of as the "odd" or "rogue" one ...)

Cheers all.

 


 
Gareth J. Green
 
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
 
Stolichnaya Blue
 
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
 

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Jeanne R
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   Posted 5/12/2011 5:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gareth Green said...
Even if I had been able to figure out how to force a key signature of Fbmaj,


For the record, you can do the attached with a non-standard key sig. I suspect that making it behave as expected in every particular is something you are better equipped to do than I. But:
  • It doesn't seem to matter which key is displaying when you select "non-standard" in the key sig. dialog.
  • Non-standard will auto open a new dialog. In that next dialog, select LINEAR Key Format. Click NEXT twice to move to Format 2. (Formats zero and 1 are major and natural minor scales respectively. You cannot get 8 flats using Format 0 or 1.)
  • With Format 2 selected, at the top, where you have the image of the key sig., use the scroll bar down to get to 8 flats. If you are feeling frisky, you can have up to 127 flats or sharps and up to 128 keys (formats).
  • Now, do you need to define a "tonal center" or mess with any other buttons in that dialog? I'll bet you'll know. It appears that you could even take a key sig that looks familiar and change its attributes so that it behaves like a different animal.


Hope that proves useful now or later,

Jeanne


Jeanne
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warrenbarnett
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   Posted 5/12/2011 8:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Silly question, but why do you want so many flats? Surely there would be a much more appropriate key to write in. There is nothing more frustrating than to play every note with an accidental. Technically, it's not as difficult to play with valves as it is to read, but blasted hard to read.


Warren Barnett
 
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Doug Blackmore
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   Posted 5/13/2011 2:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
Doug,

Just one mistake: the interval needs to be 2, not 1...

Zuill


Ah yes, of course.


Doug Blackmore
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Gareth Green
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   Posted 5/13/2011 3:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
warrenbarnett said...
Silly question, but why do you want so many flats?

Not my choice; I'm only the arranger! (and I didn't choose the flats either; the original passage is in E maj, remember?) The original piece modulates so often and goes through all the remote keys you can think of that even changing the "base" key would only remove one extreme key at the expense of introducing another. The only other option (which I did consider but rejected because it would look too messy and would introduce more potential for errors) would be to not change key sig at all, but simply handle the modulations with accidentals. I went with the key changes.


 
Gareth J. Green
 
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
 
Stolichnaya Blue
 
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
 

"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway."

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Jeanne R
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   Posted 5/13/2011 12:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gareth Green said...
The only other option (which I did consider but rejected because it would look too messy and would introduce more potential for errors) would be to not change key sig at all, but simply handle the modulations with accidentals. I went with the key changes.



Please don't feel obliged to contribute any further to my education if this is hopelessly redundant, but... Wouldn't chromatic transpositions for the transposing instruments offer a middle ground: Fewer different keys with some accidentals (but no human error in entering them)?


Jeanne
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(sometimes MacBook OSX (10.4.11) with the same Finale)

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Gareth Green
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   Posted 5/13/2011 1:02 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, that works fine for so-called "neutral key" music, but that's not really the case here. The piece is solidly tonal, has definite key centres, and begins and ends in the same key. It just wanders around a lot in-between.


 
Gareth J. Green
 
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
 
Stolichnaya Blue
 
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
 

"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway."

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