|
|
MakeMusic Forum > Public Forums > Finale - Windows - FORUM HAS MOVED! > Key Signature question | Forum Quick Jump
|
|  Gareth Green Player of fine trumpets

       Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 2943 | Posted 5/11/2011 4:36 PM (GMT -5) |   | How can I force an "un-natural" key signature?
Specifically, I am writing for UK-Style brass band, where all instruments (except bass trom) are either Bb or Eb transposition. I need the key signature to appear as Gb maj for Bb instruments and Db maj for Eb instruments. This means in effect that the "Concert" key needs to be Fb maj (ie. 8 flats). As far as I can see, Finale does not allow this, and my only option is to use E maj. For whatever reason, Finale happily defaults to Db maj for the Eb instruments, but insists on F# maj for the Bb instruments, giving me 6 sharps, whereas I want 6 Flats.
I can't figure out a way to get round this. "Non-standard" key sigs doesn't seem to cover it, unless I am missing something.
Any ideas, please?
TIA
Gareth J. Green
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | Back to Top | |
  |  oldtrumpet Registered Member

       Date Joined Jan 2005 Total Posts : 340 | Posted 5/11/2011 5:22 PM (GMT -5) |   | |
 |  Gareth Green Player of fine trumpets

       Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 2943 | Posted 5/11/2011 5:22 PM (GMT -5) |   |
Flint said...I believe you need to uncheck "Simplify Key".
EDIT: Or... check it.
Well, I kind of half-remembered that as well, but I can't actually see that option anywhere. I get the nastiest feeling I'm overlooking something really obvious here, but I can't find it at the moment ...
Gareth J. Green
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | Back to Top | |
 |  Ron. Composer

       Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 8828 | Posted 5/11/2011 5:33 PM (GMT -5) |   | I don't know about other versions, as I never use key signatures, but, in Finale 2011, Chose "Edit Key Signature" from the drop down list of standard ones, then, instead of chosing "major" or "minor", pick "non-standard." Click "non-linear key signature", then click "key map." You can then add sharps or flats to your heart's content. Finale 2011b with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0, JABB 3 and Concert & Marching Band 2, Steinway: basic. TGTools Pro Win XP/Pro, Intel Core 2 Quad, 4 GB RAM
Creative XFi Xtreme Music sound card Administrator, The Compose Forums http://www.composeforums.com
New format: Starting over. Check it out. | Back to Top | |
 |  Zuill "The Troll"

       Date Joined Oct 2003 Total Posts : 29077 | Posted 5/11/2011 5:33 PM (GMT -5) |   | It is in the Staff Tool settings (Staff attributes) for the given staff (each staff can be set to a different setting). Select the Transposition box. It's in there.
Zuill
P.S.: I'm not talking about Non-standard Key Signatures here. This doesn't involve that. "When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" Post Edited (Zuill) : 5/11/2011 4:36:12 PM (GMT-5) | Back to Top | |
   |  Gareth Green Player of fine trumpets

       Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 2943 | Posted 5/11/2011 5:52 PM (GMT -5) |   | OK, found the "Simplify Key" switch, but I don't see how it helps. having it checked in the Eb instruments is what prevents them from displaying as 7 sharps and gives 5 flats instead, (given a concert Key of E major), but that doesn't change anything on the Bb instruments.
I don't see how the Non-standard key options help, either. According to the manual they are used for creating key sigs based on non-standard scale patterns, which doesn't apply here. I still can't find a way of adding more than 7 flats.
The problem with using a custom transposition setting is that the piece has multiple key changes, and the transpositions would be messed up for the other more common keys ...
Gareth J. Green
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | Back to Top | |
 |  Zuill "The Troll"

       Date Joined Oct 2003 Total Posts : 29077 | Posted 5/11/2011 5:56 PM (GMT -5) |   | For those measures, you can apply a Staff Style for the different transposition. That is an easy thing to do.
Zuill
Correction: 2 and -10 is what you need. For the staff style, use the standard setting. If the measures with the difference are more rare, then make the Staff Style the Other with 2, -10. "When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" Post Edited (Zuill) : 5/11/2011 5:03:20 PM (GMT-5) | Back to Top | |
 |  Zuill "The Troll"

       Date Joined Oct 2003 Total Posts : 29077 | Posted 5/11/2011 6:16 PM (GMT -5) |   | I realized it will be a bit more work when I looked at the template and remembered you would have to create different Styles for those instruments that are in a lower octave and need to display treble clef. The numbers would be different. Once you set up those Styles, you can save them in a library for future use, or save the template with those styles.
Zuill
P.S.: You could use Fb as a non standard key, if you want, as long as the score won't be used in Concert View. "When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" | Back to Top | |
 |  Gareth Green Player of fine trumpets

       Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 2943 | Posted 5/11/2011 6:31 PM (GMT -5) |   | OK, thanks to everyone for their input. It's late now and my brain is transposition-scrambled, so I'm going to re-visit this in the morning.
Gareth J. Green
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | Back to Top | |
    |  Zuill "The Troll"

       Date Joined Oct 2003 Total Posts : 29077 | Posted 5/12/2011 1:02 AM (GMT -5) |   | Doug,
Just one mistake: the interval needs to be 2, not 1. 1 represents up a second, 2 is up a third, which is what we are forcing here by this workaround. And by doing it as a Staff Style, we can apply it only when the concert key is E. Otherwise, the standard transposition for Bb instruments works.
Zuill
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!" Post Edited (Zuill) : 5/12/2011 12:20:39 AM (GMT-5) | Back to Top | |
 |  Gareth Green Player of fine trumpets

       Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 2943 | Posted 5/12/2011 4:52 AM (GMT -5) |   |
Zuill said...
Here's a Staff Style Library that has Staff Styles for 3 different octaves for the Bb instruments that need to show in flats instead of sharps. This works for the Bb instruments in Concert E. If you are in Concert A, it looks like you would want to do something similar for the Eb instruments.
Zuill
That did it; thanks very much for your help, Zuill. In fact the A maj wouldn't be a problem, since the band parts would come out in a mixture of 5 & 6 sharps. The problem for me with the 6 sharps in E maj was not so much a sharps v flats issue, but having the mixture of flats and sharps in the score. Problem for brass band conductors is that we tend to 'think' in the Bb transposed key (ie. the piece is in "Brass Band Gb maj") where the Eb instruments (and the bass trom!) are the transposing ones.
Even if I had been able to figure out how to force a key signature of Fbmaj, it wouldn't have helped because the Bass Trom would still have needed to display in E maj (which wouldn't have mattered because in brass band scoring the bass trom is always thought of as the "odd" or "rogue" one ...)
Cheers all.
Gareth J. Green
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | Back to Top | |
 |  Jeanne R Registered Member
        Date Joined Dec 2007 Total Posts : 1251 | Posted 5/12/2011 5:30 PM (GMT -5) |   | Gareth Green said... Even if I had been able to figure out how to force a key signature of Fbmaj,
For the record, you can do the attached with a non-standard key sig. I suspect that making it behave as expected in every particular is something you are better equipped to do than I. But:
- It doesn't seem to matter which key is displaying when you select "non-standard" in the key sig. dialog.
- Non-standard will auto open a new dialog. In that next dialog, select LINEAR Key Format. Click NEXT twice to move to Format 2. (Formats zero and 1 are major and natural minor scales respectively. You cannot get 8 flats using Format 0 or 1.)
- With Format 2 selected, at the top, where you have the image of the key sig., use the scroll bar down to get to 8 flats. If you are feeling frisky, you can have up to 127 flats or sharps and up to 128 keys (formats).
- Now, do you need to define a "tonal center" or mess with any other buttons in that dialog? I'll bet you'll know. It appears that you could even take a key sig that looks familiar and change its attributes so that it behaves like a different animal.
Hope that proves useful now or later,
Jeanne Jeanne Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3 (sometimes MacBook OSX (10.4.11) with the same Finale)
Image Attachment :
 8flats.GIF 3KB (image/gif)This image has been viewed 2691 time(s). | | | |
| Back to Top | |
 |  warrenbarnett Registered Member
        Date Joined May 2003 Total Posts : 1441 | Posted 5/12/2011 8:58 PM (GMT -5) |   | Silly question, but why do you want so many flats? Surely there would be a much more appropriate key to write in. There is nothing more frustrating than to play every note with an accidental. Technically, it's not as difficult to play with valves as it is to read, but blasted hard to read. Warren Barnett
Windows 7
Finale 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
Garritan Personal Orchestra 2
Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.01 Garritan Jazz & Big Band
Garritan Jazz & Big Band 2
Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3
Garritan Concert & Marching Band
Garritan Concert & Marching Band 2
Garritan World Instruments
Garritan Steinway Piano Basic Edition
Tapspace Virtual Drumline 2.52
| Back to Top | |
  |  Gareth Green Player of fine trumpets

       Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 2943 | Posted 5/13/2011 3:25 AM (GMT -5) |   |
warrenbarnett said...Silly question, but why do you want so many flats?
Not my choice; I'm only the arranger! (and I didn't choose the flats either; the original passage is in E maj, remember?) The original piece modulates so often and goes through all the remote keys you can think of that even changing the "base" key would only remove one extreme key at the expense of introducing another. The only other option (which I did consider but rejected because it would look too messy and would introduce more potential for errors) would be to not change key sig at all, but simply handle the modulations with accidentals. I went with the key changes.
Gareth J. Green
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | Back to Top | |
  |  Gareth Green Player of fine trumpets

       Date Joined Oct 2001 Total Posts : 2943 | Posted 5/13/2011 1:02 PM (GMT -5) |   | Well, that works fine for so-called "neutral key" music, but that's not really the case here. The piece is solidly tonal, has definite key centres, and begins and ends in the same key. It just wanders around a lot in-between.
Gareth J. Green
Fin2011, running under Vista 64-bit
(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)
Also under Windows 7 on a Samsung Laptop
Stolichnaya Blue
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"
"Never take life seriously; no-one gets out alive anyway." | Back to Top | |
Forum Information | Currently it is Tuesday, October 3, 2023 8:31 PM (GMT -5) There are a total of 403,820 posts in 58,165 threads. In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3 dotNetBB © 2000-2023 |
|
|