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BassTard777
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   Posted 3/30/2012 6:33 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...I've already posted this thread into the 'Mac' forum and thought this might be interesting also for Windows users! ... so film composers: you're very welcome to share your experiences and ideas!

Some really helpful features for professional film scoring that I am missing in Finale:

1. The possibility to create MARKERS (hit points - description text blocks) into the score. by entering them at the exact SMPTE timecode position! (in case you change the tempo, the time signature, or insert a bar - the markers stay at the exact position - locked to the SMPTE timecode).

2. Very often in professional film scoring we create a perfect tempo and time arrangement with marker informations in sync to the video in our sequencing software and export it as standard midi file (containing MARKERS, time signatures, tempo changes, etc...) and when it comes to notation/orchestration we simply import the standard MIDI file into Finale and finally we have all the time sigs, etc. in the score.. that works pretty well
and what we really love to see in FINALE 2013: to import the MARKERS (I know that's already possible, as 'bookmarks' that that doesn't help!) but also to DISPLAY MARKERS INTO THE SCORE (as explained above).

3. Finale can import the tempo information from standard MIDI files - and with the MIDI-Tempo-tool it actually shows the correct tempo changes in each bar (from the original midi file).. but it is really a hell of work to manually create and insert all the individual Time Changes (quarter note = 82 B.P.M. - some bars later: quarter note = 79 B.P.M. and so on...) that's really a lot of work to make the score look like the original cue should be and the conductor knows when the tempo changes (especially when he's using free timing with streamers, but also with click tracks).
Please can you create a PLUGIN that automatically recognizes the TEMPO information and automatically creates the 'Tempo Signals' symbol (for example: 'quarter note = 72').

Those 3 developments would make professional film scoring soooo much easier!!

If anybody has more practical ideas for film scoring tools in future Finale, please share them! We would really love to see those improvements in the upcoming Finale version.

Best wishes!
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Count of Monte Verdi
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   Posted 3/30/2012 10:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From what we have heard about F2013 from MakeMusic staff, there is a great chance that your requests will be implemented in that particular version, as much as all the other requests on this forum smurf
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william zeitler
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   Posted 3/30/2012 12:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've got one. When the director changes a cue (which can happen a lot!), one frequently has to do things like shorten a bar from 4/4 to 3/4. So in your score you need to 'delete extra notes' (or 'move to next', or...) all the extra notes/beats in the shortened bar. Finale does have a 'check region for durations' plugin, but with a score with over 50 staves (a current project) that means clicking 'delete the extra notes' potentially 50 times for just one bar. It would be really great if this plugin had a checkbox for 'apply this action to remaining bars'.


William Zeitler
Finale97 - Finale 2012
Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano
www.WilliamZeitler.com
www.GlassArmonica.com

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william zeitler
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   Posted 3/30/2012 12:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ooo, I have another one. Currently Finale only lets you set integer BPM in tempos (in expressions), but film composers work with BPMs in the 1000's of seconds. So I need to be able to enter a BPM of 40.123, yet Finale truncates that down to 40. (Currently if you create a tempo expression with BPM of 40.678, it truncates it down to the integer 40).

This may also impact MIDI import. Because of limitations like this in Finale, I use Cubase for the actual scoring, save as MIDI, import into Finale, and clean it up for the printed score. I wonder if Finale handled real number ('rational number', actually) tempos if the quantization would turn out better and I'd have less clean up.


William Zeitler
Finale97 - Finale 2012
Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano
www.WilliamZeitler.com
www.GlassArmonica.com

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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 3/30/2012 8:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Finale is for one thing, and Cubase is for another. I think you are doing it the right way. Why should Finale have all the special tools and functions of Cubase? Why not ask the Cubase people to let you generate first-class notation?



Mike Rosen
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Newbis2
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   Posted 3/31/2012 4:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For film scoring (maybe this is fixed in 2011 or 2012 versions?), a priority would be to have the movie window not get out of synch if there are tempo changes in the music. I've noticed in Finale 2010 that if there are any tempo changes or rit/accel in the music and you start in the middle, that it's not quite in sync, so to get a completely accurate account, you have to start in the beginning.

Also, in 2010, you can't start in the middle after 4 minutes without manually advancing, and after 7 minutes of film, you can't even manually sync it. (See my other post asking for workarounds on this in 2010.)


Finale 2010b, includes Garritan for Finale, and smart-whatever softsynth. Also Vienna SE once I get it working.
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Newbis2
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   Posted 3/31/2012 4:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the way, here's another one...It would be really unique and I don't imagine any other software does this, or that anyone has even thought about it. But it would be helpful both for film scoring and a lot of other things:
Suppose I improvise something and don't want to quantize it, and also, suppose that there's all kinds of rubato in the playing, and I want to keep all of that in playback (not get rid of it by tapping a beat). It would be nice if one could visually (with computer keyboard or mouse) indicate where the actual beats are, and have Finale change the notation to fit those beats and change the tempo map so that in playback it still does all the rubati that I played. That would be amazingly handy. I see it particularly helpful in film scoring, but also anything else where one wants to combine improvised and composed elements.

Another one that would be useful would be to be able to import midi files that include pedaling without Finale adding extra notes on the beginning of every bar. That would be nice because it's always a pain to have to delete those extra notes that occur on importing.


Finale 2010b, includes Garritan for Finale, and smart-whatever softsynth. Also Vienna SE once I get it working.
Windows XP 2GB RAM

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 4/1/2012 6:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You can sort of do that in Digital Performer.

Newbis2 said...
By the way, here's another one...It would be really unique and I don't imagine any other software does this, or that anyone has even thought about it. But it would be helpful both for film scoring and a lot of other things:
Suppose I improvise something and don't want to quantize it, and also, suppose that there's all kinds of rubato in the playing, and I want to keep all of that in playback (not get rid of it by tapping a beat). It would be nice if one could visually (with computer keyboard or mouse) indicate where the actual beats are, and have Finale change the notation to fit those beats and change the tempo map so that in playback it still does all the rubati that I played. That would be amazingly handy. I see it particularly helpful in film scoring, but also anything else where one wants to combine improvised and composed elements.

Another one that would be useful would be to be able to import midi files that include pedaling without Finale adding extra notes on the beginning of every bar. That would be nice because it's always a pain to have to delete those extra notes that occur on importing.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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william zeitler
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   Posted 4/2/2012 9:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Somebody said...
Finale is for one thing, and Cubase is for another. I think you are doing it the right way. Why should Finale have all the special tools and functions of Cubase? Why not ask the Cubase people to let you generate first-class notation?


Absolutely! Screwdrivers make lousy hammers, and vice versa. And trying to design a tool that does both results in one that does neither well.

Cubase does do notation--badly. Finale does recording/playback--not very well (awkward and inefficient at best compared to a proper DAW like Cubase, combined with real sample libraries like Vienna Symphonic Libraries (VSL). Compare trying to use VSL with Finale vs. Cubase.).

That being said, there are still enhancements that could be made to Finale to better support the film scoring process using Finale + DAW-of-your-choice. Amongst composers actually putting beans on the table with their efforts, I'm thinking film scoring scores very high on the list of ways they accomplish that.


William Zeitler
Finale97 - Finale 2012
Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano
www.WilliamZeitler.com
www.GlassArmonica.com

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Newbis2
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   Posted 4/2/2012 12:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeremy Levy said...
You can sort of do that in Digital Performer.

Newbis2 said...
By the way, here's another one...It would be really unique and I don't imagine any other software does this, or that anyone has even thought about it. But it would be helpful both for film scoring and a lot of other things:
Suppose I improvise something and don't want to quantize it, and also, suppose that there's all kinds of rubato in the playing, and I want to keep all of that in playback (not get rid of it by tapping a beat). It would be nice if one could visually (with computer keyboard or mouse) indicate where the actual beats are, and have Finale change the notation to fit those beats and change the tempo map so that in playback it still does all the rubati that I played. That would be amazingly handy. I see it particularly helpful in film scoring, but also anything else where one wants to combine improvised and composed elements.

Another one that would be useful would be to be able to import midi files that include pedaling without Finale adding extra notes on the beginning of every bar. That would be nice because it's always a pain to have to delete those extra notes that occur on importing.


I know this is slightly off-topic, but does any Windows software do that?


Finale 2010b, includes Garritan for Finale, and smart-whatever softsynth. Also Vienna SE once I get it working.
Windows XP 2GB RAM

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 4/2/2012 1:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The upcoming DP8 will be available on Windows finally.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 4/2/2012 1:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree that the two programs are for two different things, but there is a lot of overlap. I really want to see more focus on the DAW side towards notational entry. I use Digital Performer, which has pretty decent notation display, but it's step time mode is pretty lackluster for quick note entry. This is a spot for huge improvements in DAW software. In Finale, speedy or simple entry is the first thing you need to learn to be proficient. In a DAW, you're stuck either recording track by track live, or clicking in notes with the mouse in the piano scroll. For me, neither of those is ideal.

william zeitler said...
Somebody said...
Finale is for one thing, and Cubase is for another. I think you are doing it the right way. Why should Finale have all the special tools and functions of Cubase? Why not ask the Cubase people to let you generate first-class notation?


Absolutely! Screwdrivers make lousy hammers, and vice versa. And trying to design a tool that does both results in one that does neither well.

Cubase does do notation--badly. Finale does recording/playback--not very well (awkward and inefficient at best compared to a proper DAW like Cubase, combined with real sample libraries like Vienna Symphonic Libraries (VSL). Compare trying to use VSL with Finale vs. Cubase.).

That being said, there are still enhancements that could be made to Finale to better support the film scoring process using Finale + DAW-of-your-choice. Amongst composers actually putting beans on the table with their efforts, I'm thinking film scoring scores very high on the list of ways they accomplish that.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator, Copyist
Santa Monica, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2007-2011

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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 4/2/2012 4:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Newbis2 said...

Suppose I improvise something and don't want to quantize it, and also, suppose that there's all kinds of rubato in the playing, and I want to keep all of that in playback (not get rid of it by tapping a beat). It would be nice if one could visually (with computer keyboard or mouse) indicate where the actual beats are, and have Finale change the notation to fit those beats and change the tempo map so that in playback it still does all the rubati that I played. That would be amazingly handy. I see it particularly helpful in film scoring, but also anything else where one wants to combine improvised and composed elements.


Composer's dream.....

Jeremy Levy said...
You can sort of do that in Digital Performer.


Also Logic Pro.


Finale 2011c,OS X 10.6.8 OS X 10.5.8 / MacBookPro & iMac 20" / Logic Studio 8, Peak Express 6 / InDesign CS4 / MAX 6 / SuperCollider / CSound
INGLISH iz not maj modr-toung!

Post Edited (OCTOECHOS) : 4/5/2012 3:23:59 AM (GMT-5)

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Ronwass
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   Posted 4/2/2012 5:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Surprised that nobody's complained about the cross-posting. Well, I'll complain: Don't cross-post!


Ron Wasserman
F2009, user since 2000
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 4/2/2012 5:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ronwass said...
Surprised that nobody's complained about the cross-posting. Well, I'll complain: Don't cross-post!


why?

this isn't necessarily a mac or Windows specific issue.

And some people don't actually read posts on the "other" side.

There's nothing wrong with posting the same topic in two different forum categories when the issue exists for both, but is unique to neither.

so... stop complaining.
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william zeitler
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   Posted 4/3/2012 6:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeremy Levy said...
I agree that the two programs are for two different things, but there is a lot of overlap. I really want to see more focus on the DAW side towards notational entry. I use Digital Performer, which has pretty decent notation display, but it's step time mode is pretty lackluster for quick note entry. This is a spot for huge improvements in DAW software. In Finale, speedy or simple entry is the first thing you need to learn to be proficient. In a DAW, you're stuck either recording track by track live, or clicking in notes with the mouse in the piano scroll. For me, neither of those is ideal.


Yes. I would just add that by nature printed scores are 'perfectly quantized', and a recording of the same music in a DAW is never (if performed by a human). Sometimes a manually entered/perfectly quantized part in a DAW is good enough, but in general the relationship between a score and a performance is a profoundly complex problem--see the 3,982 different recordings of the same score of a Beethoven symphony. Will a Finale 'performance' of a Beethoven symphony score ever really be compelling? And if you could run those 3,982 different recordings of the same Beethoven symphony through a recording-to-score converter, I'm thinking there's going to be a surprising amount of variation in the scores.

BTW, Cubase sounds as bad as Digital Performer in terms of 'speedy note entry'. (Arg!)


William Zeitler
Machine 1: Finale 2012 | Vegas Pro | Sound Forge
Machine 2: Cubase | Vienna Symphonic Lib & other sample libraries
Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano
www.WilliamZeitler.com
www.GlassArmonica.com

Post Edited (william zeitler) : 4/3/2012 7:12:48 AM (GMT-5)

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wish910
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   Posted 4/4/2012 1:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Two small suggestions:

1.Hope Finale 2013 to become a real 64-bit application as Sibelius 7 has done last year!

2.Making more formal HP files as Sibelius 7's Sound-Set files in order to let Finale users import more different VST sound libraries in addition to GPO.

http://www.sibelius.com/helpcenter/resources/soundsets.html

Thank you a lot. :)


 
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Donald Sosin
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   Posted 2/6/2013 1:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Does anyone have suggestions about how to adjust the tempo for a scene without exhausting trial and error, going through lots of menus, changing tempos, to see where the end point comes out? With, let's say, a 32-bar tune that has to be fit into x second of film time. In DP it's pretty straightforward, but I haven't been able to find a way in Finale. I end up changing the tempo 10 times before it fits. Grateful for help.

Donald Sosin
oldmoviemusic.com

composer, arranger, conductor
Lakeville CT


Donald Sosin film composer among other things
oldmoviemusic.com

Finale 2012c.r13 Mac OS 10.6.8 Macbook Pro 15" 2009 Roland RD-700GX with SuperNatural piano sounds and SRX -09 Digital Performer 6.03 until 8 is fixed

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michelp
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   Posted 2/6/2013 2:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In the manual, look for "Fit to Time" in the Midi Tool.


Michel
Finale 2012c, 2011c, 2010b, 2009b, MacOsX 10.7.5 (Lion), Mac Mini Intel Core i7 2,7 Ghz, 16 Go Ram, French azerty kb, Dolet 6. Full TGTools. MOTU Audio Express

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Donald Sosin
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   Posted 2/6/2013 2:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OMG, what a big help! Thanks! D


Donald Sosin film composer among other things
oldmoviemusic.com

Finale 2012c.r13 Mac OS 10.6.8 Macbook Pro 15" 2009 Roland RD-700GX with SuperNatural piano sounds and SRX -09 Digital Performer 6.03 until 8 is fixed

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IronChef
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   Posted 9/18/2013 12:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes indeed I second the original post.
Ability to read and import Markers as well as tempo markings that actually show up in the score as such. This would be a big time saving for Film composers. Can't be that hard to do since that data is embedded in the MIDI file.
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Terry Cano
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   Posted 9/19/2013 12:18 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes! that would be a welcome addition. 
It is useful to be able to create hit points after a spotting session also.
If they could create a "enter marker key" that would enter a user selected marker
and give us a few choices.  A drop down list of markers that could be clicked on an the cursor
located to that position is needed.  really a  hot rod version of bookmarks. It would be great if we could see the smpte as a timeline also.
That gets tricky cause the frame rate would have to be read or user entered.'
Being able to export the marker in a standard RTF or document file that could be open in a word processor
would also be a great time saver.  That part should be fairly easy programming. 
 
Terry
 
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IronChef
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   Posted 9/24/2013 9:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Furthermore are few more features for FILM SCORES that I would love to see implemented to speed things up and make our life easier. A lot of these ideas would also appeal to Concert scores.
Some sort of Film template that would have the following settings:

1. Large Time signature display which would show on first instrument of each section i.e. not displayed in all other staff
2. Transposing of instruments done without adding sharps and flats. i.e. no key signature. All film scores and pretty much most modern contemporary do not use key signature
3. Bar numbers in boxes at every bar above strings in full score, bar number at every bar in parts. Currently options are only top or bottom staff. In film usually you want above Vln1.
4. Importing a MIDI file would effectively read the tempo map and display it in the score as well as MIDI markers (which are handy for making notes to orchestrator or marking film events)

All these are already doable but still require a lot of manual handling to get to it. Document style does not preserve staff style such as preference to not transpose instruments as well as which staff should display the time signature (since large ones are used). So would be nice to have a template from the Document setup that would have all those already built-in.
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Derrek
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   Posted 9/24/2013 10:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You have said all these things are doable. So why not just make yourself a template to use for your scores?


Finale 2012 - Windows 7
GPO 4, JABB 3, World Instruments
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Motet
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   Posted 9/25/2013 2:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
IronChef said...

3. Bar numbers in boxes at every bar above strings in full score, bar number at every bar in parts. Currently options are only top or bottom staff. In film usually you want above Vln1.

Your suggestions are good, but unless I'm misunderstanding you, this one is already implemented. You can give them an enclosure. If you start with the set-up wizard, Finale displays measure numbers in the score on the top staff but also on Violin 1, but you can control this yourself by setting a staff attribute to display measure numbers. It's not a lot of manual handling to do this.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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