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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 7/21/2012 6:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Unless I mistakenly changed something, Finale's default placement of articulation trills leaves something to be desired. I thought I I'd share here the tweaks I made to make them look good (to me, at least).

First of all, Center Horizontally is not checked for any of the four trill articulations (tr, tr-flat, tr-sharp, and tr-natural). With this unchecked, the horizonal placement depends on the click position, which can be anywhere above the span of the notehead. Not good.



So, I checked Center Horizontally. One then gets the same placement, regardless of exact centering of the cursor over the note. But notice both horizontal and vertical placement are different for each articulation, which you can see best on the whole note, where I've added all four articulations.



They've tried to compensate vertically by giving a different Default Vertical Position on the flat and natural, but they forgot to do that on the sharp. But even the flat and natural are somewhat different from the plain trill.

I fixed all this by making all four default vertical positions the same (36), and changing the handle positioning offsets instead. As you can see from the whole note, the tr's all now coincide. The EVPU values I came up with are (H,V): tr = (-2,0); tr-flat = (2,-9); tr-sharp = (6,-9); tr-natural=(2,-9).



Hopefully others will find this useful. Maybe I'll write this up for Mike Rosen's tips page.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

Post Edited (Motet) : 7/21/2012 6:23:44 PM (GMT-5)


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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 7/21/2012 6:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry about the giant pictures, but it helps to see things close up.

Have things improved with 2012? I'll attach the "before" .MUS file.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP



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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 7/21/2012 6:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And here's the "after" file with the altered articulations.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP



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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 7/21/2012 8:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think things are about the same in 2012.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed)
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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KennethKen
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   Posted 7/21/2012 8:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the tip. It's timely for a project I'm currently working on. Do you have settings for the other fonts?

Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012b, Core i7 [email protected], 8GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Motet
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   Posted 7/21/2012 11:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm afraid not. But the way I did it was I put the unadorned tr on a note and zoomed way in, 500% or something like that. After adjusting the trill's horizontal offsets to get it centered over the note, I put the other trills on top of that one, separately one at a time, and adjusted their offsets until they lined up exactly with the first one.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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KennethKen
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   Posted 8/6/2012 12:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet,

I've noticed that the tr symbol, to my eye, doesn't look as centered when on an upstem note (especially when the notehead is below the staff making the nearest visual reference the note's stem). I don't see a way that Finale let's us choose different settings for upstem vs downstem notes (I use "Above note" as the Positioning/Position) and Jaris JW Change plugin doesn't seem to have a way to move trill symbols filtered bythe stem direction of its attached note (or the note's displacement, i.e., >0 vs <0).
Have you found a solution to this type of problem?

Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012b, Core i7 [email protected], 8GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Motet
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   Posted 8/6/2012 1:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree with you it looks better centered over the stem. I don't have Finale in front of me, but as I recall there are two sets of handle offsets you can specify, but I think alas they're for above and below note rather than upstem/downstem, so that doesn't help.

With the trills I just live with it. But in the past I've had two copies of certain articulations (specifically, the marcato ^), one for upstem and one for downstem. You could do that with the trills and adjust the horizontal handle offset accordingly for the upstem versions.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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Motet
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   Posted 8/6/2012 1:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
To clarify--get the above versions working for whatever font you're using, then make copies of each in the articulation dialog for the upstem versions. You should end up adding the same amount to all the horizontal handle offsets to get them centered over the stems.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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KennethKen
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   Posted 8/6/2012 4:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

That's what I was afraid of. Duplicating the articulations is so 90's.mad  I'll see if Jari can help.

Ken


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012b, Core i7 [email protected], 8GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Motet
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   Posted 8/6/2012 5:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Personally, I would rather have two sets of articulations rather than having to run a plug-in every time.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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KennethKen
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   Posted 8/6/2012 9:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Personally, I would rather have two sets of articulations rather than having to run a plug-in every time.
If you end up transposing the music or do alot of copying and pasting between different octaves and/or instruments with different transpositions you'll then have to handle/edit each tr individually...which kind of defeats the purpose. Personally, I'd love it if Finale had different HV settings for upstem vs downstem for articulations AND expressions - it already has separate H settings for up vs downstem tuplets.


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012b, Core i7 [email protected], 8GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 8/6/2012 11:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Though, unless they've fixed it, the tuplets are still problemmatic.

That's a good point about copying and pasting, and I did run into that with my carets. Up- and down-stem settings make more sense than above/below settings, actually.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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KennethKen
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   Posted 8/7/2012 6:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Though, unless they've fixed it, the tuplets are still problemmatic.
Absolutely true.rolleyes They "fixed" tuplets to the same degree they "fixed" the wild shaping of engraver slurs.tongue


Windows 7 Pro (64 bit), Finale 2012b, Core i7 [email protected], 8GB Ram
Brass music, Woodwind Music, Concert Band Music, CDs, etc.

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 8/7/2012 10:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On the other hand, remember the pre-"designer" tuplets?


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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