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Flint
silly bear



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   Posted 8/22/2012 9:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am drawing a total blank here... is there a term for the combination of bowed and fingered tremolo on a string instrument? (i.e., rapidly changing notes or strings while also bowing an unmeasured tremolo)


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows 7 64-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
 
"Finale 2012 ate my bay-bay."

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Bill Bentgen
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   Posted 8/23/2012 8:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Rapidly playing the note over and over is tremelo.

Alternating the note with another note is a trill.

What you are describing is a combination of a trill played with tremelo.


Bill Bentgen
Finale 2.01->2012
GPO 4.0, JABB
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 8/23/2012 9:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
@ Bill: on a string instrument, a tremolo can mean:
1) passing the bow rapidly from one string to another thus creating an alternation of two notes
2) on the same string, alternating rapidly between two fingered notes within one bow stroke (if the interval is larger than a 2nd, it is a tremolo, and not a trill)
3) rapid back-and-forth bowing on a single or multiple string(s), effectively repeating a note rapidly.

@ Flint I'm not sure I understand what you mean...
could you give an example?

I don't quite see what you mean by "combination of bowed and fingered" tremolo.
do you mean "in a passage"? or at the same time?
I don't see how a tremolo passage can be both fingered (on a single string) and bowed (on two strings).

as far as I know, there is no specific terminology regarding the type of tremolo.
I can't even find any sure-fire means of identifying when a tremolo is intended to be bowed rather than fingered, other than context (ie: if it CAN be bowed, or if it CAN be fingered). There seems to be a lot of leeway in this regard.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) 2010, 2011, 2012b installed
Win XP
basically ALL Garritan sounds, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ~John Rogers

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David Ward
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   Posted 8/23/2012 10:06 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...
I am drawing a total blank here... is there a term for the combination of bowed and fingered tremolo on a string instrument? (i.e., rapidly changing notes or strings while also bowing an unmeasured tremolo)
I suspect the only simple way to indicate the difference is whether of not there's a slur between the two notes of the tremolo. That's not 100% reliable though, as scores are not consistent in their use of this slur. I'm unaware of any simple term to distinguish between a slurred two-note tremolo and one in which the bow goes very rapidly back and forth, as in a bowed tremolo, while the fingers alternate between two notes - one supposes on the same string.


David Ward
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Finale 2010b
Mac 10.6.8
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 8/23/2012 10:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
David Ward said...
I suspect the only simple way to indicate the difference is whether of not there's a slur between the two notes of the tremolo. That's not 100% reliable though, as scores are not consistent in their use of this slur. I'm unaware of any simple term to distinguish between a slurred two-note tremolo and one in which the bow goes very rapidly back and forth, as in a bowed tremolo, while the fingers alternate between two notes - one supposes on the same string.


Whether a tremolo is fingered or bowed across two strings, there MUST be a slur.
Lack of a slur does not indicate a fingered tremolo.

And honestly, I just don't see how one could finger a tremolo on a single string AND change bow directions at every finger change... which is what you appear to be suggesting with your latter description. Rapidly fingering a tremolo, while doing a single-string /// tremolo at the same time? that's just not going to be a pretty sound.

Our problem here is that the same term is used to describe at least three different physical realities:

- rapid back and forth of the bow on a single string (or two at once)
- rapid rocking movement across two strings with a slight up-down movement, thus alternating the sounding of the two strings
- rapidly lifting and setting down a single finger on a single string, to create a repetition of an interval, while drawing the bow across the string


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) 2010, 2011, 2012b installed
Win XP
basically ALL Garritan sounds, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ~John Rogers

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Zuill
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   Posted 8/23/2012 11:08 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

This link gives some direction: Bowed-and-Fingered Tremolo

Zuill

P.S.: Page 362 describes it and its notation.



"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed)
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 8/23/2012 10:13:31 AM (GMT-5)

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Flint
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   Posted 8/23/2012 11:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill, you are a marvel. Yes, the bowed-and-fingered tremolo (both versions - on two strings and on the same string) is what I was looking for. I knew I had seen it somewhere!

I suppose I'll have to include an explanation on the part if I decide to use it. :-p


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows 7 64-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
 
"Finale 2012 ate my bay-bay."

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 8/23/2012 12:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
This link gives some direction: Bowed-and-Fingered Tremolo

Zuill

P.S.: Page 362 describes it and its notation.


that link just brings me to a google page about that book.
is there somewhere other than buying the book that allows one to read page 362?


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) 2010, 2011, 2012b installed
Win XP
basically ALL Garritan sounds, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." ~John Rogers

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Zuill
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   Posted 8/23/2012 12:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Try clicking on the Page 357 link at the top and then scroll to 362. They usually only allow a limited number of pages to be previewed.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed)
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 8/23/2012 12:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The link led me to a page that didn't display the text--I think due to odd characters in the search string--but if you type the search into Google itself, you get a result which will then lead to a page with content.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 8/23/2012 12:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The Forsyth book, by the way, while dated, is inexpensive and well worth owning. There are used copies on Amazon.com for $0.22!


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Flint
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   Posted 8/23/2012 2:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've read the Forsyth previously, I just don't currently own it. At the time when I had read it, I was much less interested in writing for strings, I suppose.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2011b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows 7 64-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
 
"Finale 2012 ate my bay-bay."

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David Ward
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   Posted 8/23/2012 2:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel R. E. said...
And honestly, I just don't see how one could finger a tremolo on a single string AND change bow directions at every finger change... which is what you appear to be suggesting with your latter description. Rapidly fingering a tremolo, while doing a single-string /// tremolo at the same time? that's just not going to be a pretty sound.
It's not so unusual and works fine with a full section. With a solo player the effect is usually rougher, but usable in an appropriate context. I don't think any attempt is usually made to synchronize exactly the bowing and fingering.

The screen shot below is from the Wikipedia article en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremolo

We had Forsyth's book on orchestration at school (a long time ago). It is very dated and opinionated, but fun. Of the strange occurrences in the Berlioz requiem of chords for three flutes with 8 trombones playing pedal notes underneath, he said: 'I've never heard it, but it probably sounds very nasty.' Gordon Jacob, in a later book said: 'I have, and it does.' Well, I've played it (as one of the trombones - there are an astonishing 16 in the piece) and I think it sounds rather beautiful!


David Ward
www.composers-uk.com/davidward

Finale 2010b
Mac 10.6.8
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