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Reuben Ware
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   Posted 1/25/2013 11:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is there some way to enter the whole note in 5/4 time (0) {or something like this} in Finale?



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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 1/25/2013 11:43 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Do you mean that you want to use one note symbol to represent 5 beats? I think this has been discussed here before, with much vigour.

There's almost certainly a way to present any sort of notation in Finale. The question is: will people know what you mean! :p


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Ron.
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   Posted 1/25/2013 11:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dotted half tied to non-dotted half (or visa versa). Why would you want to do otherwise?


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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 1/25/2013 12:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
of course you can easily enter a whole note in 5/4 time. But then of course you would have to fill out the missing beat since 5/4 requires the value of 5 quarter notes.

Ron is absolutely right with his solution of dotted half note tied to half note (or vice versa).


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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 1/25/2013 12:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You could do it as a tuplet, 2 half notes in the space of 5 quarter notes, do not show bracket or number.



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Ron.
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   Posted 1/25/2013 12:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
You could do it as a tuplet, 2 half notes in the space of 5 quarter notes, do not show bracket or number.


Why? (Asked respectfully.)


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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 1/25/2013 1:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Simply because it can be done. I am not ruling on whether it should be done, or not. If I did, there would be a whole lot of notational practices (particularly in the contemporary field) that I would question, as well.

At some point in the past, I thought we (the forum) would answer the question, while pointing out that it might not be the best solution. Let the poster decide whether to do it, or not.



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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 1/25/2013 1:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I also ask "why?"

if you make a tuplet over the whole note, why hide the values? what is the point? how is imprecise notation bringing anything to the page?
(I know you're just trying to answer the OP's question, Mike.... I guess we're being devils' advocates... bet you didn't know it was a whole law firm, eh?)


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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 1/25/2013 1:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I took it mean he wanted just one regular whole note that represented 5 beats in the measure, similar to how you can put in a real whole rest that represents 5 beats.  I don't think it can be done like the rest can.  You could also just tie a whole to a quarter.  If playback is not an issue, you could have a 4/4 measure with a whole note "appear" as a 5/4 measure by using the "More Options" button in the "Time Signature" tool dialog box.


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Ron.
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   Posted 1/25/2013 1:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here's a picture of how to do it. Note, you can omit the 4 and bracket if you wish. All I did was enter a whole note in a 5/4 measure, then goto the tuple tool and make it 4 quarters in the place of 5. However, I think it is a fair question to ask why someone would want to do something that is bound only to create confusion on the part of any musician encountering such notation.


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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 1/25/2013 1:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If one turns off "fill with rests," won't a simple whole note suffice?


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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 1/25/2013 1:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Motet,

Yes, but would not correct playback, i.e. a full 5 beats for the whole note still be a problem.

Ron,

It looks like your method of the whole note tuplet, but hide the number and bracket, it the best solution that fits both the look and playback.  It would not be a source of confusion to me for a notated single whole note in 5/4 to be held for 5 beats, similar to a whole rest in a 5/4 measure to represent 5 beats, or similarly a whole rest in a 3/4 measure to represent only 3 beats.  Just my opinion.  I don't think I've ever encountered such a 5/4 whole note in practice, though.


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RMK
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   Posted 1/25/2013 1:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I saw a notation once where the composer put a rhythm dot on the "wrong" side of the note (i.e. the left side) to indicate the addition of a quarter of the note it was attached to. So, one of these dots added to a whole note would indicate 5 beats.

I think it is a bad idea.
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Derrek
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   Posted 1/25/2013 2:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree with Mike's point that one should be able to notate a whole note filling a 5/4 measure if that's what one wishes to do, but I agree that Ron's solution (combination of half and dotted half tied) is not only the traditional solution but also helps the performer anticipate how the conductor will conduct the measure and the other players play it.


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Ron.
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   Posted 1/25/2013 2:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Charles Lawrence said...
Motet,

Yes, but would not correct playback, i.e. a full 5 beats for the whole note still be a problem.

Ron,

It looks like your method of the whole note tuplet, but hide the number and bracket, it the best solution that fits both the look and playback. It would not be a source of confusion to me for a notated single whole note in 5/4 to be held for 5 beats, similar to a whole rest in a 5/4 measure to represent 5 beats, or similarly a whole rest in a 3/4 measure to represent only 3 beats. Just my opinion. I don't think I've ever encountered such a 5/4 whole note in practice, though.


If I encountered a single whole note in a 5/4 measure and no rests in sight, I would stop playing and ask the conduction where he would like me to put the rest: before the whole note, after it, or in the middle somewhere. But then, I'm a born Smart A**.


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tbmartin
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   Posted 1/25/2013 3:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would hate to see a whole note equaling 5 beats in 5/4. What do you then do if you really want a 4 beat note? Sure, the "emptiness" at the end would signal that it's to be held 5 beats, as opposed to the note or rest on beat 5 in the situation when it's only 4 beats, but talk about confusing!

It will admit that it is a logical contradiction to the whole rest meaning the entire bar is a rest, regardless of the time signature, but that's just the way it is.

I'm even hesitant to use double-dots on notes because it starts turning into a math problem with an answer that might not be obvious in the time you have to play the notes. I've found one exception to my own hesitancy, however. I'm currently working on a piece in 7/4 and I have no problem using a double-dotted whole note to fill a bar with one note that lasts the entire 7 beats. It's simple enough to see and because it's the only thing in the measure, the brain quickly says "one note fills the entire measure."


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Motet
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   Posted 1/25/2013 3:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm just trying to answer the O.P.'s question. If playback is an issue, then the tuplet with hidden number/shape.


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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 1/25/2013 3:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
tbmartin said...
What do you then do if you really want a 4 beat note?
Then you would fill the measure with either rests or other notes to complete the 5 beats.  I'm not saying that notating a single whole note to fill five beats in a 5/4 measure is necessarily a good or proper thing to do, but if that is what was on the part I was playing, I think I would understand what was intended.
 
Ron. said...
I would stop playing and ask the conduction [sic] where he would like me to put the rest: before the whole note, after it, or in the middle somewhere.
The conductor might just tell you to hold the note out for 5 beats!rolleyes


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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 1/25/2013 4:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Charles Lawrence said...
Ron. said...
I would stop playing and ask the conduction [sic] where he would like me to put the rest: before the whole note, after it, or in the middle somewhere.
The conductor might just tell you to hold the note out for 5 beats! rolleyes


And in that instant you have wasted precious time and money in your rehearsal.
Do you KNOW that the conductor would also see this as an "oh, this must be one of those 5-beat whole notes"?
The conductor might waste time trying to see if there isn't something missing form the measure as well.

Wasted time = wasted money = wasted rehearsal = bad engraving.


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Ron.
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   Posted 1/25/2013 4:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Charles Lawrence said...
tbmartin said...

What do you then do if you really want a 4 beat note?
Then you would fill the measure with either rests or other notes to complete the 5 beats. I'm not saying that notating a single whole note to fill five beats in a 5/4 measure is necessarily a good or proper thing to do, but if that is what was on the part I was playing, I think I would understand what was intended.




Ron. said...

I would stop playing and ask the conduction [sic] where he would like me to put the rest: before the whole note, after it, or in the middle somewhere.
The conductor might just tell you to hold the note out for 5 beats! rolleyes


Maybe he would; maybe not. I'm not a mind reader, though I am capable, apparently, of embarrassing typos. lol


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Motet
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   Posted 1/25/2013 4:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Do we know this is an orchestra piece?


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Mircea
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   Posted 1/25/2013 6:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
idea What about us inventing and proposing a way of notating a full measure note. An variation of the whole note that would mean "play this measure throughout" in any meter, just like the whole measure rest. We (if found for the better of writing music) should include new notation ideas in the format of the old. Too many "new age" scoring techniques that stick for only one piece are accepted, why not something that adds to the traditional way of writing music?

But we have to move fast to be of any use for Reuben Ware. lol


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Derrek
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   Posted 1/25/2013 7:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's just use the symbol "formerly known as Prince."


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ttw
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   Posted 1/25/2013 7:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mircea said...
idea What about us inventing and proposing a way of notating a full measure note. An variation of the whole note that would mean "play this measure throughout" in any meter, just like the whole measure rest. We (if found for the better of writing music) should include new notation ideas in the format of the old. Too many "new age" scoring techniques that stick for only one piece are accepted, why not something that adds to the traditional way of writing music?

But we have to move fast to be of any use for Reuben Ware. lol

Longa and maxima come to mind.


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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 1/25/2013 7:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...

If I encountered a single whole note in a 5/4 measure and no rests in sight, I would stop playing and ask the conduction where he would like me to put the rest: before the whole note, after it, or in the middle somewhere.


Or, he would tell you EXACTLY where to put it, much like why there is an angel on top of a Christmas tree... freaked



Mike Rosen
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FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm

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Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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