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paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/27/2013 1:21 PM (GMT -5)

Yes. . . I guess that's really the nub of it for me - my hidden staves are usually chord charts, that's about all that's in them!

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 2/27/2013 12:35 PM (GMT -5)

Definitely adding chords breaks MM rests. That seems to be a certain element.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes

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paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/27/2013 12:24 PM (GMT -5)

Finally got a response from tech support - they say that the original behavior I described is actually how the program works - in other words, you cannot create a MMR if there is anything in any staff in the score in that region, hidden or not. Of course at this point, we have determined that this is not really the case, bbu seems to become the case at some point in working on the file.

Attached is a simple, fresh file with 3 staves, one hidden. As you can see, I WAS able to create MMR's in the page view across regions where the hidden staff contains music. However, I was only able to do this either while in Page View by highlighting the measures & right-clicking, or else in either page or scroll view by using Create MMR's off the Edit menu. Highlighting the region while in scroll view would not create the MMRs in page view. And as I have stated, I have many files where I cannot do it in any view or method.

If I come up with a full day to experiment, maybe I can figure out what decides whether I am able to create them or not - maybe notes don't prevent it but chords do. Maybe the chords wouldn't if they were attached to notes. Maybe copying & pasting changes some measure attributes that I don't realize.

So there you have it - it kind of works in certain circumstances, even though it isn't actually supposed to. Clear?

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Post Edited (paulbrainard) : 2/27/2013 11:14:30 AM (GMT-6)

File Attachment :
mmrtest.mus 40KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 242 time(s).

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/25/2013 3:26 PM (GMT -5)

Thanks all - not sure if maybe there are some different bugs in our different versions, or something that got stuck in these files as I worked on them is preventing them from behaving correctly. . . clearly there are some things I should be able to do but cannot! Unfortunately I haven't gotten any response from tech support. But the additional part solution seems pretty workable.

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 2/23/2013 11:26 AM (GMT -5)

Jeanne R said...
In my version at least, you have to make the mm rests with the dialog box rather than just selecting measures and choosing Create from the menu.

Your version is 2008a. I don't remember the details for that far back a version. In my version 2012c.r13, you can select a range of measures using either the Selection Tool or the Measure Tool, and right click to pop up a context menu where you can choose "Multimeasure Rests -> Create". This works in either Page or Scroll view. In Page view only, there is a similar mechanism in the "Edit -> Multimeasure Rests" menu. This menu option is not available in Scroll view. I'm not sure what dialog box you are referring to. In 2012, the only dialog box for MMRs is the "Edit -> Multimeasure Rests -> Edit" dialog box, where you can modify, but not create MMRs. This is also available in the right click context menu. This dialog box is unavailable in Scroll view.

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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943

Posted 2/23/2013 5:46 AM (GMT -5)

paulbrainard said...
Gareth - yes, I set the hidden staff to blank notation, didn't help (is that what you meant?)

When I applied the staff style (Blank Notation With Rests, layer1) in your sample file, I was able to create MMR's no problem.I had to modifly the staff style to not show chords as well.

Unfortunately I can't demonstrate, because your file was converted to F2012 format.

Gareth J. Green

Fin2012c, running under Vista 64-bit

(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)

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"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)

Jeanne R
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 1251

Posted 2/22/2013 10:26 PM (GMT -5)

paulbrainard said...
Also made sure to de-select "auto update" under MMR's in doc opts, no luck.

And the number for "start numbering at" is low (1 or 2)?

There is definitely something weird. I went looking to change that end of system problem where I got a 7m rest instead of the 9m rest it should have been (and that it is when the top staff is deleted). I tried a half-dozen strategies. Nothing changes that 7-m rest.

Charles is right. In my version at least, you have to make the mm rests with the dialog box rather than just selecting measures and choosing Create from the menu. When you return to page view, there they are. Didn't solve my 7-m rest problem, tho.

I wonder if you'll hear that this is not supported. If it works, good for you, but otherwise...

That linked part idea sounds like the least extra work and the least kludgy, least likely to come back and bite you the way kludge can.
When I generated parts, my bottom group of two staves had the mm rests done already (part of part-generation prefs). Correct mm rests, that is. 9 where the 7 is with the hidden staff.

Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3
(sometimes MacBook OSX (10.4.11) with the same Finale)

Post Edited (Jeanne R) : 2/22/2013 8:33:20 PM (GMT-6)

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 2/22/2013 9:45 PM (GMT -5)

paulbrainard said...

Charles - right, what I mean is if I try to create them in scroll view, they do not show up in page. Not actually even sure if that should work or not. . .

But that is just it. You can create a MMR in scroll view, just as well as in Page view. It does indeed work. The MMR created in Scroll view will show as such when you go back to Page View. MMR's never show as such in Scroll view. Just cycle back and forth a few times to see.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/22/2013 9:16 PM (GMT -5)

Gareth - yes, I set the hidden staff to blank notation, didn't help (is that what you meant?)

Charles - right, what I mean is if I try to create them in scroll view, they do not show up in page. Not actually even sure if that should work or not. . .

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Charles Lawrence
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 3638

Posted 2/22/2013 8:24 PM (GMT -5)

paulbrainard said...
And, highlighting all 4 staves in scroll view & creating the MMR does not work, has to be in page view

I think you will find that it does indeed work, but that MMR's are never displayed in Scroll view.

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943

Posted 2/22/2013 8:21 PM (GMT -5)

Have you actually tried the Staff Styles solution?

Gareth J. Green

Fin2012c, running under Vista 64-bit

(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)

Stolichnaya Blue

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/22/2013 7:37 PM (GMT -5)

Upon further experimentation with the same file I uploaded, I have discovered that I can create MMR's but only while the top staff is unhidden - and I have to highlight it along with the others. But this only works where that staff is empty - even just chord symbols prevents it. Maybe something about staff grouping??

Also remembered there is an audio track on this one - didn't help to remove that.

And, highlighting all 4 staves in scroll view & creating the MMR does not work, has to be in page view

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Post Edited (paulbrainard) : 2/22/2013 5:40:56 PM (GMT-6)

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/22/2013 7:33 PM (GMT -5)

Hmm you're right. I actually just created a few scratch files & tried it out, it is letting me. But I have many many others existing scores that won't let me - I can't figure out what prevents me!

I do not have "break multimeasure rests" selected except where I would actually want them broken. But just to check, I de-selected it from the entire score & that didn't do it. Also made sure to de-select "auto update" under MMR's in doc opts, no luck. Also tried changing the hidden staff to blank notation. Something must wind up in there at some point while I'm working on the file. Again, I have dozens like this that are not just copied or created from a template so it can't be something that is just getting inherited from one old file.

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/22/2013 7:33 PM (GMT -5)

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Jeanne R
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 1251

Posted 2/22/2013 7:07 PM (GMT -5)

In Measure Attributes, is "break mm rest" selected or gray? Try clearing that box for all measures.

>>It allowed you to make MMR's only where the top (hidden) staff is empty as well.

Not really, there's a mm rest in mm.3-9 even tho there are notes in mm 3-5 in the top staff.
There's a mm rest in mm 14-16 even tho there are notes in the top staff for each of those measures.

>>Really that first one should be a 9-bar rest in the page view instead of 7 plus two singles, but you can't make it do that because there is something in the other bars of the hidden staff.

Yes, when I delete the top staff then I get a 9-m rest. There were other anomalies.

Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3
(sometimes MacBook OSX (10.4.11) with the same Finale)

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/22/2013 6:29 PM (GMT -5)

I have the "start numbering" set at 2 also. I just tried de-selecting "auto update" and it did not allow me to create MMR's. And as I say, it works fine if I clear (or delete) the hidden staff, so that doesn't sound like a doc option causing it to me. . .

In yours, it is indeed hiding some of the intervening measures of the top line to make the MMR happen below - if the top staff is unhidden, it skips from m.3 to m.10 in order to match up with where the 7-bar rest ends. That's all I was pointing out, kind of an odd result. . but that's not quite the issue. It allowed you to make MMR's only where the top (hidden) staff is empty as well. Really that first one should be a 9-bar rest in the page view instead of 7 plus two singles, but you can't make it do that because there is something in the other bars of the hidden staff.

I guess I should clarify - it's not that you can't make MMR's at all in the score, it's just dependent on where the hidden staff is blank. Put another way, the ability to make MMR's at any point appears to be based on the content of the entire score, not just what is actually visible on the page view.

In any case, thanks for helping me try & figure it out!

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Jeanne R
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 1251

Posted 2/22/2013 4:46 PM (GMT -5)

And here is the file after hiding the top staff and making mm rests -- but not UNhiding the staff.
That is, if this were a movie, this scene comes in between the second PDF and the one I first uploaded.

Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3
(sometimes MacBook OSX (10.4.11) with the same Finale)

File Attachment :
top_hidden.pdf 17KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 303 time(s).

File Attachment :
mm_rests-top_hidden.MUS 63KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 370 time(s).

Jeanne R
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 1251

Posted 2/22/2013 4:41 PM (GMT -5)

This is the file without mm rests. As you indicated, when you hide the top staff you have an awful lot of empty measures. When you hide the top staff, you can make these mm rests.

I wouldn't describe it as Finale's hiding and "lining up" measures. It created the mm. rests when the entire top staff was hidden. When you unhide the staff, you inevitably see m. 3 in all staves (where the mm rest begins) but not mm. 4-9, which are hidden in the mm. rest.

Admittedly, it's confusing to see completely unhelpful content in the top staff -- some of the notes that are in the top staff but not all. I showed you the top staff to prove that there was content there in spite of the fact that you see mm rests under that staff. Thinking of hiding measures and lining up measures obscures the process.

I think your issue lies in Doc. Opt. as described: where/when numbering starts and auto update off.

Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3
(sometimes MacBook OSX (10.4.11) with the same Finale)

File Attachment :
no_mm_rests.pdf 19KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 459 time(s).

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/22/2013 4:21 PM (GMT -5)

Jeanne, you're gonna give Zuill a run for his money. . . . I don't entirely understand what you have done, it looks like it is actually hiding measures in the top staff to line back up with the others after the MMR? You may have done this before I posted my files, take a look at them - the PDF is the desired result, but I could only do that by deleting or clearing the hidden staff. Or by making another part with those 3 staves in it - essentially that will be my printed score. It will create a little extra work & I'm not sure yet what (if anything) I will lose or have to re-create compared to the "actual" score. Actually, it could have one small advantage - I can leave the main score in concert pitch & have the printed one in native keys. . .

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Jeanne R
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 1251

Posted 2/22/2013 3:59 PM (GMT -5)

paulbrainard said...
Here is an example. The .mus file with the hidden staff, you can't create MMR's in the score (page view.) The PDF of how it looks with them, after temporarily clearing/deleting the hidden staff (hope I got them straight. . .) Not a ton of them in this particular one, but you get the idea - on sparser arrangements, there can be a lot of blank measures taking up space on the page!

Is the attached what you are looking for? I made those rests while the top staff was hidden. I can hide and unhide as needed.

In addition to the Doc. Opt. "start numbering at" I think it best to DEselect automatic updating. When I went to print, it all changed but when I deselected that everything stayed put. I also think I ran into some rules about *adjacent* mm rests but there were too many variables to test. That's the sort of thing you just have to work with.

Hope I'm not completely missing the point but this is what it sounded like,

Jeanne

Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3
(sometimes MacBook OSX (10.4.11) with the same Finale)

Post Edited (Jeanne R) : 2/22/2013 2:02:21 PM (GMT-6)

File Attachment :
mm_rests.pdf 18KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 564 time(s).

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/22/2013 2:33 PM (GMT -5)

Here is an example. The .mus file with the hidden staff, you can't create MMR's in the score (page view.) The PDF of how it looks with them, after temporarily clearing/deleting the hidden staff (hope I got them straight. . .) Not a ton of them in this particular one, but you get the idea - on sparser arrangements, there can be a lot of blank measures taking up space on the page!

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

File Attachment :
All You Pretty Vandals.pdf 97KB (application/pdf)

This file has been downloaded 397 time(s).

File Attachment :
All You Pretty Vandals.mus 77KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 363 time(s).

paulbrainard
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2001
Total Posts : 305

Posted 2/22/2013 2:11 PM (GMT -5)

Yes, the measures I want to make MM rests out of are empty. Just the hidden staff has items in it at those points - as I say, if I clear its contents, then I am able to create the MMR's. Yes, I think creating another part to be my printing score is probably the solution. . . also submitted the question to tech support so I'll report back if they have anything else to suggest. . .

Finale 2011b, mac & windows

Derrek
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 2347

Posted 2/22/2013 1:07 PM (GMT -5)

Would making a "part" with all instruments except the line with the chords and then applying the multi-measure rest to that part be a solution to your problem?

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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 2943

Posted 2/22/2013 12:44 PM (GMT -5)

I'm really not sure that I'm understanding what you want, however:

Attached is a short 3-page extract from a full score. On page two, I selected all measures, all staves, and applied a staff style of "Blank Notation with rests, layer 1". I then used the selection/edit tool to create Multimeasure rests for page 2. Apart from the first measure, which was split by the rehearsal mark, the score now has a 7-measure MM rest in all staves.

Is this what you want?

[PS: very sorry, just realised you are on 2011 and so will not be able to open my demo file. I think the staff style can still be applied in 2011, though.]

Gareth J. Green

Fin2012c, running under Vista 64-bit

(Core2Duo E8400@3.00GHz; 8Gb RAM; SB X-Fi Extreme Audio, ATI Radeon HD 4650.)

Stolichnaya Blue

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)

Post Edited (Gareth Green) : 2/22/2013 11:02:16 AM (GMT-6)

File Attachment :
MM_Rest_in_score_test.mus 68KB (application/octet-stream)

This file has been downloaded 411 time(s).

Jeanne R
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2007
Total Posts : 1251

Posted 2/22/2013 12:28 PM (GMT -5)

You are sure that you have no "real" rests in resting measures? They are really empty?

Otherwise, look in Document Options > MM Rests. The number for "start numbering at" should be low. If it isn't, try 1 and see if that works. You'll need to clear out any mm rests and re-create them. FYI, you can then UN-hide and RE-hide your staff as needed to double check everything. Clearly this must be close to dead-last in your work process.

A lot has changed since my version, so maybe someone will help if this points in the right direction but the interface has changed.

Hope that helps,

Jeanne

Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3
(sometimes MacBook OSX (10.4.11) with the same Finale)

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