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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 8/24/2013 3:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"64-bit" does seem to be the hobby horse of the technically uninformed. There is a downside to it as well, which is carrying 64-bit addresses and pointers in the code, which makes it bigger and slower.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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HBegun
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   Posted 8/24/2013 11:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
I hope Finale 2014 brings back the Mass Mover truck animation but this time as "Bumblebee, the transformer" (not the suped-up Camaro of the movies but the adorable Volkswagon Beetle of the 1980's cartoon). He could transform back and forth as he transforms your music.

The chugging truck is actually still lurking behind the scenes. Add the following line to the [Settings] section of finale.ini to get it back:

UseTruckCursor=1


Howard Begun
Finale 2012
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel Core Duo E8400, 3.0 GHz, 6 GB RAM

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wish910
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   Posted 9/11/2013 4:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
iPhone 5S and iOS 7 have become 64-bit.
Windows 7 and 8 and Mac OS.X 10.8 have also become 64-bt.
I can't understand why some of you don't need Finale to become 64-bit.


Finale 2011, GPO

Post Edited (wish910) : 9/11/2013 11:46:19 AM (GMT-5)

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Ron.
Composer



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   Posted 9/11/2013 8:24 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
wish910 said...
iPhone 5S and iOS 7 have become 64-bit, I can't understand why some of you don't need Finale to become 64-bit.


Try to look at it this way: just because something is available doesn't mean that you "need" it. For example, my wife and I could buy a huge SUV like our neighbours. However, a small import does us just fine. Finale will, undoubtedly be 64-bit compliant some day. That doesn't mean that it will ever use the additional 32 zeroes in memory addresses. There are very very few applications that require that much addressability. And, I am sure that in five years or so everyone will be clamoring for 128-bit processing. That might be useful if you are running weather forecasting software or mapping particles in an atomic explosion, but for the average run-of-the-mill application, graphics aside, 16-bits would probably do just as well.

Here's what an instruction in Finale looks like now: 00000100100111001010110110001110. This is what it will look like in 64 bits: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000100100111001010110110001110. Big change, eh? If you want to see what it will look like when 128-bit processing becomes fashionable just add another 64 zeros in front of it.

MakeMusic has a lot of serious problems to address--and 64 bits is definitely not one of them. Let's fix the real problems before we start adding a bunch of meaningless zeros to the mix.


Finale 2012c with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0.
JABB 3 and Concert & Marching Band 2.
Steinway: basic. Garritan's Instant Orchestra.
Garritan World Instruments. TGTools Pro
Windows 7 Home Edition, AMD FX-8100 8-Core Processor, 10 GB RAM
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wish910
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   Posted 9/11/2013 12:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I know, but some users have written me some e-mails about the Sound Quality of Finale.

They hope Finale can support more RAM and CPU processes to improve the sound quality because some users think Score Editor has been mature and they'd like to
begin to engage the "Sounds." First, they don't use DAW. Secondly, they are frustrated about GPO. Is the problem not important?
Why can Sibelius become 64-bit and supported a lot of VSTi sound libraries?

You say Makemusic have a lot of problems to solve and I know that's true. So, Sibelius has no problem? Why Sibelius has additional time and technique to improve the sound quality?


Finale 2011, GPO

Post Edited (wish910) : 9/11/2013 11:43:04 AM (GMT-5)

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AlexBlank
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   Posted 9/11/2013 2:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wish910:
Perhaps this can serve as an example of why 64bit is not a very necessary feature at this time:
While I don't use Finale playback, oftentimes when I create a score, I don't get disable Garritan, meaning that all of the samples for the instruments I've selected load. In one case, I had a *HUGE* (30+ staves) orchestral score that had over 90 densely packed pages which included graphics and additional fonts loaded. My system specs are located in my signature, and the computer is a little over 3 years old, so it's not ancient, but it's not a beast rig anymore. On this computer, upon playing this extremely complex file, Finale had just over 800 megs of memory addressed, which falls far below the 4gb ceiling that 32bit applications are "limited" to.

I'm not saying that my score was the most complex ever created in Finale, but it is WAY more complex than what most people need, and it came NOWHERE near the need for those extra 32 zeros. The only times I've ever needed any program to address more than 4gbs of memory is when I'm doing complex, real-time fourier transforms in MAX or when I'm doing a ton of processing in ProTools or DP.

Most likely the issues people have with sound quality in Finale are with bugs in finale's audio engine, or with their hardware/OS. Furthermore, comparing Finale to Sibelius on technical issues is like comparing technical specifications of airplanes made by Boeing and Airbus; while they both achieve the same result (i.e. flight) and have similar parts, the designs and implementation are different. Finale is 25 years old, and Sibelius is roughly 15, and they have different methods of implementing playback, aside from any means of addressing memory.

And lastly, I nearly died of laughter and amazement when I saw the 64bit iPhone announcement; I'd be willing to guess that it'll be a LONG time before anyone actually has use for that "feature." lol


----------------------------------------------
Finale 2007c, Finale 2008a, Finale 2009b, Finale 2010a, Finale 2011b, Finale 2012c (and Sib6, Sib7, Ableton 8)
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Bill Reed
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   Posted 9/11/2013 2:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Garritan has a minuscule memory footprint. If that's what you use, then a larger memory address space isn't important.

On the other hand, going x64 would also mean having a multi threaded application, optimized for today's multi core processors. That is a benefit to everyone.


Finale 2011b, Notion 4, Overture 4, Sonar X2

Win8 x64, 32GB RAM

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Ron.
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   Posted 9/11/2013 6:02 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So what if someone decides he needs a school bus to transport his grandmother to the grocery store--she is not going to get there any faster than if she went by Volkswagen Beetle. And that's what putting 64-bit applications on cell phones is equivalent to. As for Sibelius, I've tried it and didn't even come close to filling 4 GB of RAM, so what are they going to do with the (potentially) petabytes of address space?

I am sure that Finale will be 64-bit compliant some day if for no other reason than "everybody else is doing it."


Finale 2012c with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0.
JABB 3 and Concert & Marching Band 2.
Steinway: basic. Garritan's Instant Orchestra.
Garritan World Instruments. TGTools Pro
Windows 7 Home Edition, AMD FX-8100 8-Core Processor, 10 GB RAM
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Bill Reed
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   Posted 9/11/2013 8:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Some are content with a grandmother. Others want the varsity team...


Finale 2011b, Notion 4, Overture 4, Sonar X2

Win8 x64, 32GB RAM

M-Audio ProFire 2626

Kontakt, VSL, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 9/12/2013 8:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Reed said...
On the other hand, going x64 would also mean having a multi threaded application


It would not mean that. It was possible to do pre-emtive multitasking on 16-bit processors, and it's possible to build a 64-bit single-threaded application.


Jari Williamsson

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2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM

www.finaletips.nu - The Finale Productivity Tips site

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 9/12/2013 8:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There's quite a lot of nonsense in this thread. There are benefits to 64-bit software beyond simply addressing more memory.

That having been said, a move to 64-bit is not only difficult and resource consuming (in terms of mean man-hours), and Finale is not generally straining at the envelope of 32-bits. So I agree with the sentiment, but not the reasoning.

The only time is seems to be an issue is when using the Aria Player plug-in with very large sample sets, and the plug-in needs to be the same bit level as the app.


"This is me helping."

Finale 2012c, 2.6Ghz 2012 MacMini 16Gb RAM (10.8.3)
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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 9/12/2013 9:48 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
32 or 64, but please give me a bugfree!


Finale 2011c,OS X 10.6.8

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Motet
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   Posted 9/12/2013 2:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy said...
There are benefits to 64-bit software beyond simply addressing more memory.


Such as?


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows XP

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Jamie Pettit
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   Posted 9/12/2013 6:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy said...
The only time is seems to be an issue is when using the Aria Player plug-in with very large sample sets, and the plug-in needs to be the same bit level as the app.


I posted in this issue a while back and was at the time unsure as whether it would be possible to mix 'n' match 32 & 64 bit code. So I checked with one of our architects who didn't want to commit himself (as is typically the way with hardcore coders until they actually see something working smilewinkgrin ) and his take was that 64 bit code consumed by a 32 bit application would have to run as a separate process, so there's a need for data marshaling and all of the usual out-of-process glue and comms. I've worked for years with this guy and he can be trusted to know how things really work (ie. no folklore), so I believe him.

This means that it would be possible to run 64 bit VSTs from Finale, but it would take some dancing. I'm quite confident that he Finale dev team will have figured this out already. Whether or not this approach ever makes it into the product is a much more complex equation involving lots more than just dev effort and technical constraints.

Jamie


Jamie Pettit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finake 2008
GPO - Finale Edition
Win7 32 bit
Pentium Dual Core 2.7 gHz
4 gigs RAM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The perceived object...is not a sum of elements to be distinguished from each other and analyzed discretely, but a pattern, that is to say a form, a structure: the element's existence does not precede the existence of the whole, it comes neither before nor after it, for the parts do not determine the pattern, but the pattern determines the parts: knowledge of the pattern and of its laws, of the set and its structure, could not possibly be derived from discrete knowledge of the elements that compose it.
 
That means that you can look at a piece of a puzzle for three whole days, you can believe that you know all there is to know about its colouring and its shape, and be no further ahead than when you started. The only thing that counts is the ability to link this piece to other pieces...
 
Georges Perec - Life: A user's Manual
 

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 9/13/2013 10:10 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
OCTO. said...
So, to sell a software means to sell before it will be available. That is the fact.


And yet, MakeMusic (or the companies preceeding it) have never worked that way on a larger scale. And incidentally, Finale is the notation brand that has stayed in business the longest time.

Has a certain advantage in this department, having been one of the first such programs to emerge for the Mac and Windows!

Brian


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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 9/13/2013 10:16 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...
wish910 said...
iPhone 5S and iOS 7 have become 64-bit, I can't understand why some of you don't need Finale to become 64-bit.


Try to look at it this way: just because something is available doesn't mean that you "need" it. For example, my wife and I could buy a huge SUV like our neighbours. However, a small import does us just fine. Finale will, undoubtedly be 64-bit compliant some day. That doesn't mean that it will ever use the additional 32 zeroes in memory addresses. There are very very few applications that require that much addressability. And, I am sure that in five years or so everyone will be clamoring for 128-bit processing. That might be useful if you are running weather forecasting software or mapping particles in an atomic explosion, but for the average run-of-the-mill application, graphics aside, 16-bits would probably do just as well.

Here's what an instruction in Finale looks like now: 00000100100111001010110110001110. This is what it will look like in 64 bits: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000100100111001010110110001110. Big change, eh? If you want to see what it will look like when 128-bit processing becomes fashionable just add another 64 zeros in front of it.

MakeMusic has a lot of serious problems to address--and 64 bits is definitely not one of them. Let's fix the real problems before we start adding a bunch of meaningless zeros to the mix.

Ron is right on the money here ... and remember that at the end of the day, the MIDI data that drives playback (even in GPO) ... is 7-bit (yes, SEVEN bit). You don't need an 8-byte-long, 64-bit, register to hold a 7-bit CC value, note velocity or suchlike!

Brian


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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 9/13/2013 10:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The ONLY part of Finale that would benefit from being 64-bit, is the amount of memory that can be used to store SAMPLE PLAYBACK DATA. And guess what, Aria has been 64-bit for several years. I am using the 64-bit version of GPO4/Aria with my FIRMLY 32-bit version of Finale 2005b.

Brian


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CraigP
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   Posted 9/13/2013 12:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...

What "64-bit rewrite" is that? Do you know something that you'd like to share?

This release (and its associated 2+ year cycle) was positioned as a "complete rewrite". Some of that might be hyperbole. One would hope that is not literally true.

In this case, 64-bit means a whole lot more than simply compiling the program with the compiler options set to 64-bit mode. It is surely an objective of this 2014 release to continue progress toward advanced playback. After all, that is the whole concept behind Human Playback and Garritan. I have no particular knowledge, but my guess is that product designers took a good look at where DAWs (and more particularly VSTs) are going and concluded, "We can patch together another release, but we really cannot remain competitive without some fundamental changes in our product architecture."

A substantial percentage of Finale users are also DAW users who value more integration / interoperability between Finale and DAWs. In particular, there is a great richness and diversity of VST effects out there that have become essential for anybody that is really serious about playback. Finale 2012 can't work with most of them now because the best ones are already in the 64-bit space -- and the overall Finale 2012 architecture for VSTs is extremely limited.

Likewise not everybody wants to use Garritan for everything. There are loads of great VST synths out there, and many of them cover areas that Garritan doesn't even touch -- or at least they are at a more advanced stage than Garritan. Common examples include strings, pianos, and drum sets. If you are really serious about playback, you probably don't use Garritan for pianos, strings or drumsets in your DAW. Being able to use those VSTs directly in Finale is really almost a mandatory in the 2014 time frame. Very difficult to take a product seriously without that.

I know many people are not so interested in the realistic playback, and are really just focused on producing sheet music. There is nothing wrong with that, but those people can probably live happily on Finale 2012 for a few more years. I would point out that the education market is a high-priority target for MakeMusic -- always has been. The distribution agreement with Alfred puts a sharp point on that. Virtually every university that would consider buying Finale is very heavily into sound engineering on all levels and they would expect the level of DAW integration I described above.

===
On edit, after reviewing other comments about 64-bit, let me say as a person involved professionally in commercial software development since 1973 (yes, they had software back then), if MakeMusic is doing anything like a "complete rewrite" or "major rewrite" and did not take that opportunity to update to 64-bit mode, that would be insane. I think the MakeMusic people are competent, reasonable people so I would be absolutely astounded if the new version does not support 64-bit mode. That would make no sense on any level, technological or marketing-wise. I wouldn't lose any sleep over that. There is no chance that the new version would fail to support 64-bit, IMHO.

Post Edited (CraigP) : 9/13/2013 12:14:55 PM (GMT-5)

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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 9/13/2013 4:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
CraigP said...
That would make no sense on any level, technological or marketing-wise.


As I have said numerous times before, a 64-bit app would loose support for old plug-ins, such as TGTools. In what way doesn't that make sense on any level?


Jari Williamsson

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Ron.
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   Posted 9/13/2013 4:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
CraigP said...
That would make no sense on any level, technological or marketing-wise.


As I have said numerous times before, a 64-bit app would loose support for old plug-ins, such as TGTools. In what way doesn't that make sense on any level?


It doesn't make any sense, but then, neither do many statements from the technically naive about 64-bit processing that lace this thread. MM will do whatever MM decides is in its best interest despite the wishful thinking of those who think they know what it "must" do. Frankly, I don't give a damn how many bits of RAM any product uses--I care about whether or not it delivers. If they can pull if off with 8-bit addresses, more power to them.


Finale 2012c with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0.
JABB 3 and Concert & Marching Band 2.
Steinway: basic. Garritan's Instant Orchestra.
Garritan World Instruments. TGTools Pro
Windows 7 Home Edition, AMD FX-8100 8-Core Processor, 10 GB RAM
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CraigP
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   Posted 9/13/2013 5:18 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari Williamsson said...
CraigP said...
That would make no sense on any level, technological or marketing-wise.


As I have said numerous times before, a 64-bit app would loose support for old plug-ins, such as TGTools. In what way doesn't that make sense on any level?

Not at all. There are well-known techniques for running 32-bit code within the umbrella of a modern (i.e. 64-bit) app environment.

Tilting at this windmill makes no sense at all. Any app announced today as 32-bit-only is immediately and permanently perceived as old technology. Y'all can debate whether that is fair or not. But fair or not, that is the reality, and especially prevalent in bureaucracies like universities that look for simple ways to justify complex decisions.

If they really come out with a 32-bit only package, it will be suicidal, considering that the market has waited 2.5 years for this "major upgrade".

Most DAW users I know, for example, don't buy any VSTs now unless they have 64-bit versions. That thinking is pervasive, and the technical pros and cons just don't matter.
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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 9/14/2013 7:09 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It has been announced that Finale 2014 will be 64bit. Time to get over that, boys and girls. It's happening. 32bit is dead.

The most important thing is for it to shed the 32bit code so that it can move forward. At some point the decision must be made to take advantage of the new capabilities and not cripple Finale to the restrictions of 32bit code. If you do not care for this, well, no reason to believe that, as long as there's an OS that runs 32bit applications, Finale 2012 won't still work just as well as it does now.

I bet there are still a few users bemoaning the fact that very little software runs on 16 bit platforms anymore but they've had 18 years to get over that one, too.

No one is going to hold a gun to your head and force you to upgrade -- unless you want the new features.
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MikeHalloran
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   Posted 9/14/2013 7:15 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
"64-bit" does seem to be the hobby horse of the technically uninformed. There is a downside to it as well, which is carrying 64-bit addresses and pointers in the code, which makes it bigger and slower.
So that's the reason that well designed 64bit apps run faster and utilize resources better. I knew there had to be a good explanation for that.

Waitiminit... You don't really understand... Oh never mind....
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Bill Reed
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   Posted 9/14/2013 8:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Announced where?


Finale 2011b, Notion 4, Overture 4, Sonar X2

Win8 x64, 32GB RAM

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Kontakt, VSL, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos

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Ron.
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   Posted 9/14/2013 9:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MikeHalloran said...
It has been announced that Finale 2014 will be 64bit. Time to get over that, boys and girls. It's happening. 32bit is dead.

The most important thing is for it to shed the 32bit code so that it can move forward. At some point the decision must be made to take advantage of the new capabilities and not cripple Finale to the restrictions of 32bit code. If you do not care for this, well, no reason to believe that, as long as there's an OS that runs 32bit applications, Finale 2012 won't still work just as well as it does now.

I bet there are still a few users bemoaning the fact that very little software runs on 16 bit platforms anymore but they've had 18 years to get over that one, too.

No one is going to hold a gun to your head and force you to upgrade -- unless you want the new features.


This has to be one of those ridiculous posts I've seen. Not only has there never been such an announcement and 32-bit is very far from dead, but I don't know of anyone "bemoaning the fact that very little software runs on 16 bit platforms anymore."

There will undoubtedly be new features in a new version of Finale, same as there has always been new features. So what? That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.


Finale 2012c with Garritan Personal Orchestra 4.0.
JABB 3 and Concert & Marching Band 2.
Steinway: basic. Garritan's Instant Orchestra.
Garritan World Instruments. TGTools Pro
Windows 7 Home Edition, AMD FX-8100 8-Core Processor, 10 GB RAM
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