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Venturer
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   Posted 11/5/2013 12:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I know this has been discussed before, but given how quickly new tech emerges and how quickly similar threads have devolved as of late, I hope to have a civil discussion about the current best actions to take to allow Finale to use large VST libraries for instant playback.

My current workflow has been to compose a piece into Finale, export it to midi, open it in my DAW (Reaper), assign all the new instruments and tweak as necessary - sometimes even reopening Finale to rewrite parts that don't sound correct using the sounds I plan to use and then redoing entire parts in the DAW again with the new midi information. I hope to streamline this process a bit, though I expect importing the file into the DAW once will probably still be necessary for the final adjustments.

In a nutshell, what are the best options for just being able to use large VSTs with Finale as straightforward and inexpensively as possible - without running out of it's limited 3.5 GB of memory?

Thanks!
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nordensten
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   Posted 11/5/2013 1:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One way is to load the 32-bit version of the Vienna Ensemble Pro VST in Finale. This will communicate with the 64-bit version of Vienna Ensemble Pro Server. Use that to host all your VST Libraries. This way Human Playback will work. If you are using Midi only one can use other programs (like Bidule) to host the VSTs.


(Finale 1.0 (1988) ->) 2012c (on Win since 1997)
(Sibelius (Acorn) -> Sibelius 7 (Win) - Notion 4 (Win))
Hauptwerk 4 - Cubase 7 - Vienna Ensemble Pro/MIR
assorted VSL instruments - assorded Spitfire Audio instruments - assorted HW organs
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8/i7/32GB

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La Leyenda
Female. Composer. Legend.

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Total Posts : 774
 
   Posted 11/5/2013 1:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How can I get a Bidule to host my VST and still route it into Finale 2014 (using 64bit VST)?
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nordensten
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   Posted 11/5/2013 1:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If Finale is in VST mode, all audio will be output from Finale. Finale will only host 32-bit VSTs.
If Finale is in MIDI mode, all audio will be output from the VST Host (e.g. Bidule), it is not routed back to Finale.
There may be other options, I only have experience using Vienna Ensemble Pro.


(Finale 1.0 (1988) ->) 2012c (on Win since 1997)
(Sibelius (Acorn) -> Sibelius 7 (Win) - Notion 4 (Win))
Hauptwerk 4 - Cubase 7 - Vienna Ensemble Pro/MIR
assorted VSL instruments - assorded Spitfire Audio instruments - assorted HW organs
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8/i7/32GB

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La Leyenda
Female. Composer. Legend.

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Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 774
 
   Posted 11/5/2013 2:01 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I never thought of using Bidule! As a downside though, since it'll have to pass via MIDI mode in Finale, does that mean it's not possible to have things like human playback if Finale is in MIDI mode? :(
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Matt.C.
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   Posted 11/5/2013 2:31 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Venturer , what sample libraries are you wanting to use with Finale , and what are your system specs to get some idea of what you want to do ? For myself , it's important to me to be able to use Finale with large high-end libraries . In case you haven't seen this in other threads , have a listen to the piece of music on this page . It's a real-time recording with Finale 2012 using large sample libraries .

www.symphonicsamples.com/finalelibraryextensions

Cheers

Matthew


www.symphonicsamples.com - https://soundcloud.com/symphonicsamples

Post Edited (Matt.C.) : 12/23/2013 7:47:37 PM (GMT-6)

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nordensten
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   Posted 11/5/2013 2:33 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Unless they did something new to 2014, I'm afraid the answer is yes...
I had a custom VST solution to circumvent that in 2012, but it's not possible to use in 2014, apparently because there's yet a new audio engine ... awaiting response from support, but not very optimistic...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) ->) 2012c (on Win since 1997)
(Sibelius (Acorn) -> Sibelius 7 (Win) - Notion 4 (Win))
Hauptwerk 4 - Cubase 7 - Vienna Ensemble Pro/MIR
assorted VSL instruments - assorded Spitfire Audio instruments - assorted HW organs
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8/i7/32GB

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La Leyenda
Female. Composer. Legend.

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Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 774
 
   Posted 11/5/2013 2:36 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have an instance of Kontakt loaded in Bidule to just test this out, but I can't get Finale to route MIDI back into my LoopBe. Can you perhaps offer a simple guide on how to setup a simple bidule and finale VST configuration? Small, nothing huge!
Thank you kindly.
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nordensten
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   Posted 11/5/2013 10:44 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Surely, there are others in here with greater knowledge of Bidule, but I just tried it...
Load Bidule with Kontakt (or whatever). Route output to the Mixer object.
open a Midi Input object (Midi devices>Input>whatever MIDI out Bank is selected in Finale) and route it to the Kontakt object.
That's it.

Just discovered that MIDI OUT only works as expected in 2011. The 2012 bug - Midi Out config. not being retained is still there in 2014(!!)


(Finale 1.0 (1988) ->) 2012c (on Win since 1997)
(Sibelius (Acorn) -> Sibelius 7 (Win) - Notion 4 (Win))
Hauptwerk 4 - Cubase 7 - Vienna Ensemble Pro/MIR
assorted VSL instruments - assorded Spitfire Audio instruments - assorted HW organs
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8/i7/32GB

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Bill Reed
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Date Joined Feb 2001
Total Posts : 1203
 
   Posted 11/5/2013 10:51 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Every time I look at Bidule I want to run away as fast as I can! Why not check out Cantabile instead.

For whatever reason, I didn't have the MIDI config bug in 2012. Haven't tried in 2014 yet.


Finale 2011b, Notion 4, Overture 4, Sonar X2

Win8 x64, 32GB RAM

M-Audio ProFire 2626

Kontakt, VSL, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos

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Venturer
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   Posted 11/5/2013 11:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Some of the midi out stuff from this conversation appears to be somewhat version dependent. I should mention I'm still using Finale 2010 (haven't had a particularly compelling reason to upgrade). Are these solutions still compatible for this, or will I finally have to pull the trigger on an upgrade to Finale as well?

Otherwise, it looks like the main suggestions right now are VE Pro, Bidule, or Cantabile. They all appear to have 'try' options, so I may play with the lot of them and see which one seems to work the best for me. Don't interpret this as thread over, though! I still would love to hear more suggestions and thoughts on the various solutions. Also, some notice on which of these options do not allow Human Playback would be beneficial. It's one of the main features that keeps me using Finale in the first place.

Matt C. said...
what sample libraries are you wanting to use with Finale , and what are your system specs to get some idea of what you want to do ?


I use rather a hodgepodge of samples, typically Sample Modeling Brass, Berlin Woodwinds, LA Scoring Strings, and Spitfire percussion for orchestral pieces (and then a fair number of filters to make them blend with each other!) For more contemporary pieces, I pretty much use Native Instrument stuff, but my electric guitars are from Electi6ity which is a particularly significant memory hog. My rig is an i7 860 running Windows 7 with 16GB RAM and samples pulled from a terabyte SSD.
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Bill Reed
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Total Posts : 1203
 
   Posted 11/5/2013 11:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jBridge is another solution, though I've never tried it.


Finale 2011b, Notion 4, Overture 4, Sonar X2

Win8 x64, 32GB RAM

M-Audio ProFire 2626

Kontakt, VSL, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos

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bassoongoddess7
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   Posted 11/5/2013 12:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I believe that you buy a program, install it exactly the way you are supposed to, and it should work. There shouldn't be a reason to have to go some round about way to get it to work. It should just work. I upgraded last night to 2014 and I am getting the audio engine error message too. I had a similar issue with 2012c that Support Solutions still hasn't helped me with (when I would switch from Midi to VST, the program would crash).

To say I am frustrated with Finale would be an understatement.
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 11/5/2013 12:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
bassoongoddess7 said...
I believe that you buy a program, install it exactly the way you are supposed to, and it should work. There shouldn't be a reason to have to go some round about way to get it to work. It should just work. I upgraded last night to 2014 and I am getting the audio engine error message too. I had a similar issue with 2012c that Support Solutions still hasn't helped me with (when I would switch from Midi to VST, the program would crash).

To say I am frustrated with Finale would be an understatement.


that is very different from my experience, at least with Finale 2012.
it has worked flawlessly for me since installation.
what exactly "round about ways" have you had to go to get the program to work for you?


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) 2010, 2011, 2012b installed
Win XP
basically ALL Garritan sounds, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Bill Reed
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   Posted 11/5/2013 1:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is a thread about using 3rd party sample libraries, and I haven't seen anything about an audio engine error.


Finale 2011b, Notion 4, Overture 4, Sonar X2

Win8 x64, 32GB RAM

M-Audio ProFire 2626

Kontakt, VSL, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choir and Pianos

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Venturer
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Total Posts : 5
 
   Posted 11/24/2013 7:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A follow up after playing around with a variety of solutions here:

I've decided to go with the jBridge solution. It's very inexpensive, runs seamlessly in Finale just as if Finale natively supported 64-bit VSTs, and works very well. I subjected Finale/jBridge to a brutal 12GB of instruments and there wasn't a hiccup. The one problem I ran into was that I needed to increase Finale's VST block size to run the VSTs without popping. As far as I can tell, you can't do this in Finale 2010, which I'm currently running. So, I'll need to finally get the upgrade to 2014 as well, to do what I want (Which I'm sure MakeMusic is happy to hear!)

Thanks to everyone who helped!
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La Leyenda
Female. Composer. Legend.

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Total Posts : 774
 
   Posted 11/24/2013 8:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How do you adjust the VST block size in Finale 2014?
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nordensten
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   Posted 11/25/2013 4:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
St. Ives said...
How do you adjust the VST block size in Finale 2014?


Good question... Hopefully someone from MM can chime in here, but I would assume the OP means buffer size...? although Block size is indeed a valid term when it comes to VSTs...


(Finale 1.0 (1988) ->) 2012c (on Win since 1997)
(Sibelius (Acorn) -> Sibelius 7 (Win) - Notion 4 (Win))
Hauptwerk 4 - Cubase 7 - Vienna Ensemble Pro/MIR
assorted VSL instruments - assorded Spitfire Audio instruments - assorted HW organs
Multiple Windows computers W7/W8/i7/32GB

Back to Top

La Leyenda
Female. Composer. Legend.

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to La LeyendaAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Oct 2013
Total Posts : 774
 
   Posted 11/25/2013 4:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I use jbridge 1.5 and am curious. Hope to hear a response!
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Venturer
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Total Posts : 5
 
   Posted 11/25/2013 6:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry, my mistake! I meant buffer size (which when adjusted cleared up a 'block size' error I had been getting).

For those who may need to adjust it still, it's in the audio setup menu. See https://www.finalemusic.com/UserManuals/Finale2014Win/Content/Finale/PRECCONFG.htm for more information.
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