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Keith B
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   Posted 1/5/2015 5:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello - and a Happy New Year to everyone.

Some years back I got help from someone on the forum about adding instruments to the instrument list. He even went so far as to send me an instrument list that I fed into my version of Finale to give me the transposing Eb tuba and - I think - several other instruments I needed at the time.

I thus learned how to add instruments but the years have passed - going on 75 now... several changes of computer, several upgrades of Finale and at least one pretty horrific hard disk crash. All that knowledge is lost and a search of the forum database didn't cough it up either.

I know that a lot of tuba players (Bb and Eb) read in concert pitch but not many in concert bands in France...

It's easy to fix an transposing Eb tuba just by pulling in an Eb horn (for instance) - changing the name and pushing it into the bass clef. However, it was nice, and satisfying, to be able to build the missing instrument into the list and just pull it in every time I needed it. (Especially for one of the concert bands I do arrangements for: they have an Eb tuba as you'd probably guessed.) It's also useful to have the upper and lower limits of the instrument automatically indicated too.

At the time I also needed Catalan orchestra instruments so building new instruments into the list was even more important.

If anyone out there knows how to do it I'd be glad to hear from them. I'd like to relearn the technique and this time save it to a more reliable support... I'll also be trying to remember how to do it if my old addled brain will give me some clues...
Thanks in advance
Keith
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 1/5/2015 8:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There has been some discussion here on the forum regarding this.

As I remember, the introduction of the Score Manager in Finale 2012 required this file to be rewritten in a format that is not editable by most or all users. The consensus was pretty much that we're out of luck.

Maybe someone has more up to date info. In the meantime, you might consider making one or more templates that include those specialized transpositions and staff names. That way you don't have to continue "reinventing the wheel".

N.


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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 1/5/2015 9:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Hello again Keith,

Yes that was me back in mid 2012.  I sent you a modified Finale.instruments database file with the changes we discussed for your purposes.  I will need to know the current version of Finale you are using, hopefully F2014d, and then I can resend you the file via your email, which I still have.

Charles

PS:  To anyone contemplating such a move, while it is doable, it is not recommended, particularly if you ever send your Finale documents to any other place for perusal, or want students, for example, to be able to use the added instrument in their work, since the modified database will not be on any other computer, unless you put it there.  If this is for your own purposes, that is fine.  Also, if Finale is ever updated, the modified database will not be forwarded into the update.  It is for these reasons that I do not post such work on this public forum, but only via email.


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Ron.
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   Posted 1/5/2015 9:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What would we do without MakeMusic "improvements" that, while they might make it easier for a first time user to set up a score, make it exceeding difficult for an experienced user to make what used to be matter-of-course modifications to suit their needs? First they broke percussion mapping, then they broke instrument assignments, then they broke the tool palettes (which they've only partially fixed). I dread to think what they will decide to "improve" next.


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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 1/5/2015 10:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Subsequent to my working with Keith back in mid 2012 on this subject, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the work of Jolora in a similar project to add instruments to the database.


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Keith B
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   Posted 1/5/2015 10:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello Charles! How nice to see you again! A very happy new year to you - and to you all.
In fact you probably remember you taught me how to modify the list for my 2010 version where it was still "readable" and you also sent me the file to change my 2012 version - which I did. I had to reinstall after a major crash so that's when I lost all your good work. Luckily I didn't lose any of the thousands of finale files...
Please do send me the file again: [email protected]
Although I don't exchange many finale files with other people and those I do send files to are mostly on version 2010, by sending them as exported MusicXML files they pulled in the Eb tuba by some magic.
If you have the time I'd like to know how you made this file this time around so as I can get into it and translate all the instruments - or add the French names for all the instruments. Obviously it's no trouble for me to have them all in English but I do have to translate them when arranging for a French orchestra.
All the very best
Keith
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Motet
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   Posted 1/5/2015 2:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In my signature is a link to a chart showing how to set up the transposition for instruments not in Finale's arsenal, but the Eb tuba shown there is for a treble clef part a la British brass bands, written up an octave plus a major sixth, sounding down an octave plus a major sixth.

How is it written in the bass clef? Written down a minor third (sounding up a minor third), or written up a major sixth (sounding down a major sixth)? Let me know and I'll add it to my chart.


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Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 10/17/2015 12:41:51 AM (GMT-5)



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Motet
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   Posted 1/5/2015 3:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From Googling, it looks like transposing the tuba in bass clef is not standard, so I guess I withdraw the request for info for changing my chart. You can, of course, pick either Eb sax or Eb horn, depending on which direction you want the transposition to go.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Finale Transposition Chart

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 1/5/2015 7:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...


How is it written in the bass clef? Written down a minor third (sounding up a minor third), or written up a major sixth (sounding down a major sixth)? Let me know and I'll add it to my chart.

It's written up a major 6th. I'm not sure what's considered a standard transposition, but the publisher I engrave for has me make a set of "world parts" for each concert band piece. Among others, it includes Tuba in Bb & Eb Bass Clef and Tuba in Eb & Bb Treble Clef.


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Motet
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   Posted 1/5/2015 9:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks. Is the Bb bass clef written up a 2nd?


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 1/6/2015 9:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Thanks. Is the Bb bass clef written up a 2nd?

No, it's up a ninth.


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Motet
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   Posted 1/6/2015 1:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks. I've added those to my chart. Click the file attachment at the bottom, not the link in my signature.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 1/6/2015 2:25:39 PM (GMT-6)



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Motet
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   Posted 2/7/2015 4:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I discovered a reference to a piece for Horn in F#, so I've added that to my chart (I've never seen it personally in my years of horn playing).


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart



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kvehmane
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   Posted 2/8/2015 6:23 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Two famous examples are Haydn "Farewell" symphony and the end of Bizet Carmen.
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Motet
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   Posted 2/8/2015 1:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ah, Carmen, you're right!

I've got Horn in C alto, B natural alto, B flat alto, A, A flat, G, G flat, F sharp, F, E, E flat, D, D flat, C, B natural, B flat basso, A basso, A flat basso, and G basso. Any others you've seen that I've missed?


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 2/8/2015 1:02:43 PM (GMT-6)

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kvehmane
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   Posted 2/9/2015 4:56 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I haven't seen ever the high B natural or G basso transpositions. B basso is in Brahms 2nd symphony and A flat basso in Verdi's Otello (but I have read somewhere that there were no actual A flat basso crook, they just faked it...)
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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 2/9/2015 2:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Motet,

I am not here to revive the discussion of whose transposition chart best serves the Finale community.  Suffice it to say that my chart showed all possible transpositions (within reason - 5 octaves?), whether or not they were represented by an actual musical instrument, either in modern use or obsolete.

I will add one comment on your chart.  It seems to me that since your "Sounding" and "Written" columns are redundant except for whether it is Up or Down, that you could save some real estate by consolidating the information into one column called, for instance, "Sounding/Written" and put something like "Up/Dn octave + m 2nd" for the Db transposition.   You could explain the abbreviations used for major (M), minor (m), perfect (P), augmented (a), and diminished (d) in a note at the bottom.  Just my 2 cents.



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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 2/9/2015 2:09:46 PM (GMT-6)

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Motet
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   Posted 2/13/2015 12:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
kvehmane, I forget now where G basso came from--some Verdi opera I played, perhaps, or maybe someone's web page. I confess I may have invented H alto myself for symmetry, but I'm pretty sure G basso is something I've seen, though if an Ab basso crook didn't exist, then likely a G basso crook didn't either! Ab basso is in Falstaff--not sure about Otello.

Charles, thanks for the feedback. My chart has the advantage of fitting on one page, and listing the real instruments serves those who may not know which octave Horn in C refers to. I believe I have shown all instruments likely to be encountered these days, but am always open to adding another. It's true that "sounding" and "written" convey redundant information, but this is also a point of confusion and I wanted to make it as clear as possible. Since everything fits, I see no reason to combine the two or to further abbreviate "major" and brethren.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 2/12/2015 11:18:18 PM (GMT-6)

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Motet
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   Posted 2/13/2015 12:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Found this via a web search, by David Sprung of the San Francisco Opera (who was by the way my teacher):

"For those without experience playing opera professionally, Horn in A
and A-flat is always basso in 19th century Italian opera. There is even one
instance where horn in G is basso: Edgardo's aria in "Lucia" the third horn
in G is to be played basso. That baffled me because, although the voicing
of the four horns clearly indicates that the 3rd horn is in G basso, it is
the only instance that I know of where that is so, but the conductor Nello
Santi explained to me that the whole aria was written a half step higher
originally, and later transposed down and published that way, so horn in
A-flat (basso, as usual) became horn in G basso."

I in fact just played Lucia, but in a 2-horn reduction, so did not encounter this 3rd part.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 2/12/2015 11:37:53 PM (GMT-6)

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Motet
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   Posted 5/30/2015 8:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've changed my chart slightly to make more explicit that most of these transpositions involve the treble clef, so I'm posting it here so I can link to it in my signature (I think for this posting, it will link to the old one).


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 5/30/2015 8:41:56 PM (GMT-5)



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Motet
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   Posted 5/31/2015 4:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If a woodwind specialist could check my assertion of the listed instruments being notated in treble clef, I'd appreciate it. For example, heckelphone: treble or bass?


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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kvehmane
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   Posted 6/1/2015 3:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Heckelphone and baritone oboe in parts: treble clef always.
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Flint
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   Posted 6/1/2015 10:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Looks good.


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If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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Motet
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   Posted 6/1/2015 1:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks.


Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Motet
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   Posted 6/6/2016 1:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I updated my transposition chart to include better instructions on enharmonic instrument transposition and so have uploaded it in this thread, where the older versions live. I've linked to the new one in my signature.


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Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 6/6/2016 1:48:57 AM (GMT-5)



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