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Bill Bentgen
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 1999
Total Posts : 175

Posted 7/2/2002 9:07 AM (GMT -5)

Is anyone aware of an inkjet printer that will handle 9" x 12" "concert" size paper?

I know of several that handle 11" x 17" paper but don't know if the printer and the drivers support this smaller non-standard size.

Thanks

Bill Bentgen
http://www.billbentgen.com

JSagala
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 1999
Total Posts : 190

Posted 7/2/2002 9:50 AM (GMT -5)

Hi, I was just wondering where you got your 9x12 paper. I always use 8.5x11 or 11x17 out of convenience. Did you order it somewhere?
Sorry Gary..just read your post we must have hit send at the same time. Is there any specialty store that sells heavy-ish 9x12?

GT
It was some other guy.

Date Joined Feb 2001
Total Posts : 1434

Posted 7/2/2002 9:50 AM (GMT -5)

Bill:

I know quite a few people who use a large-format printer like the HP 5000, print to 11x17 with the printed matter centered on the page, and have the paper professionally trimmed to 9x12.

I am not aware of a printer that handles this size of paper, but it certainly doesn't mean that none exists...

Cheers.

Gary

Bill Bentgen
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 1999
Total Posts : 175

Posted 7/2/2002 10:05 AM (GMT -5)

I was thinking of trimming 11 x 17 paper down to 9 x 12 and then printing it. A more practical solution seems to be printing to 11 x 17 paper as suggested and THEN trimming it. Centering the 9 x 12 image on the paper would let me print to both sides.

I've looked for 9 x 12 paper on the web, but can only find colored construction paper in this size.

The reason I want to move to 9 x 12 is that this seems a more standard/practical size for orchestral parts. The image is just that much bigger so that I can still read the music and pretend to watch the conductor.

Bill Bentgen
http://www.billbentgen.com

Fred G. Unn
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1268

Posted 7/2/2002 10:45 AM (GMT -5)

I have an HP 5000 and I always use 9.5 x 12.5 manuscript size for parts. Unfortunately, I have to custom order the paper from a paper supplier. I use Nekoosa Solutions 100 lb text weight in Natural, the same ivoryish color a lot of manuscript paper is. It comes in flats that are 38 x 25 which the supplier cuts to yield 8 pages of 9.5 x 12.5 from each page. You'll have to order at least 1 flat (500 pgs) so the minimum order will be 4000 pages of manuscript size. Prices per page usually drop drastically if you order more than one flat, so see if you can find a few other copyists to go in on your order. I'm pretty sure these numbers are correct but I can't find the invoice from my last purchase so they might be slightly off.

If you're in NYC and need a small amount or are in a jam because of a rush job, I could sell you some. Robert Puff's the guy who told me about this paper a few years ago, so if you're on the west coast, maybe he could help you out. Here's his website:
http://www.rpmseattle.com

Fred

zacharycairns
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 33

Posted 7/2/2002 11:09 AM (GMT -5)

Somewhere along the way, I heard that 10 x 13 was sort of a "standard" in odd sizes of paper used for orchestra parts. Do you have to do the same thing with this size -- buy 11 x 17 and cut it down? (or custom order it, I guess)

Does anyone know if there is a "standard" size for orchestra parts? Or does it vary by publisher...or orchestra...

Zac

cliffdzihner
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 486

Posted 7/2/2002 11:49 AM (GMT -5)

I've always heard 9x12 from librarians. I don't know how reliable that is. Reinforcing this claim is Finale's Page Layout, which calls 9x12 "Concert".

tim
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2000
Total Posts : 692

Posted 7/2/2002 12:21 PM (GMT -5)

All of the above have been used. However I think 9x12 is going to win out in the end. The main reason is that with an HP 5000 or similar big printer you can print to 12x18 and so print 2 9x12's 2up. The paper must be custom ordered though and is not very cheap. Several places here in La La now do it this way.

In Europe and Oz it is different as and A4 and B4 are options.

I have been using an HP 5000 for almost 2 years and it has been one of my best purchases. Get one if you can

Tim

GT
It was some other guy.

Date Joined Feb 2001
Total Posts : 1434

Posted 7/2/2002 12:31 PM (GMT -5)

On 7/2/2002 4:21:00 PM, Tim Davies wrote:

I have been using an HP 5000 for almost 2 years and it has been one of my best purchases. Get one if you can.

Agreed. I just moved and mine got bumped a little in transit; I was freaked to find out that it didn't think it had a tray 3 (the 11x17 tray). I was ready to start reading Final Exit (or maybe that would be Finale Exit?) but fortunately had the presence of mind to look under the main unit. Turns out that the male/female connectors between the main unit and tray 3 got jiggled. (Insert off color joke here.) The fix involved a Phillips head and nothing else.

Whew.

Bill Bentgen wrote:

I can still read the music and pretend to watch the conductor...

Outstanding! Are you a brass player by any chance?

;-)

John Blane
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 55

Posted 7/2/2002 12:55 PM (GMT -5)

On 7/2/2002 2:45:00 PM, Fred G. Unn wrote:
>I have an HP 5000 and I always
>use 9.5 x 12.5 manuscript size
>for parts. Unfortunately, I
>have to custom order the paper
>from a paper supplier. I use
>Nekoosa Solutions 100 lb text
>weight in Natural, the same
>ivoryish color a lot of
>manuscript paper is. It comes
>in flats that are 38 x 25
>which the supplier cuts to
>yield 8 pages of 9.5 x 12.5
>from each page. You'll have to
>order at least 1 flat (500
>pgs) so the minimum order will
>be 4000 pages of manuscript
>size. Prices per page usually
>drop drastically if you order
>more than one flat, so see if
>you can find a few other
>copyists to go in on your
>order. I'm pretty sure these
>numbers are correct but I
>can't find the invoice from my
>last purchase so they might be
>slightly off.
>

>
>Fred

This is outrageous - if I were you I would find a new supplier. I can special order paper and have it custom cut in any quantity I specify.

But on the subject of page size - the Major Orchestra Librarians Association states that 9.5 x 12.5 is the minimum and I think most prefer 10x13. All of the big publishing houses print 9x12 which the librarians accept since the orch made the purchase. No printer will think of 9x12 (or any other odd size) standard. Unless you want to be trimming each page, you need to either use a pg layout program to place your image centered at the top of what the printer thinks is an 11x17 page or set up your Finale page layout to simulate this. Otherwise, if you print a 9.5x12.5 Finale-defined page size onto an 11x17 page, the print driver will center the image (horizontally and vertically) in the middle of the page forcing you to trim.

zacharycairns
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 33

Posted 7/2/2002 1:43 PM (GMT -5)

>I can still read the music and pretend
>to watch the conductor...
>
>Outstanding! Are you a brass player by
>any chance?
>

I know he's not a percussionist, cause we don't even pretend to watch. Just make up our own tempo and spend most of our time looking for cute girls in the violin section...

:-)

Zac

RMK
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 1999
Total Posts : 187

Posted 7/2/2002 2:22 PM (GMT -5)

>But on the subject of page size - the
>Major Orchestra Librarians Association
>states that 9.5 x 12.5 is the minimum
>and I think most prefer 10x13.

I am a member of MOLA and I do prefer 10X13. BTW, I have no trouble printing pre-cut 10X13 paper on my HP 5000. I get the paper pre-cut at Kinko's for about $20 per ream for 70 lb. paper.

Ronald M. Krentzman
R&M Music Preparation

Fred G. Unn
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1268

Posted 7/2/2002 2:24 PM (GMT -5)

John, I've used a couple of different ones but neither would let me split a flat. However, it didn't really matter much anyway because I went in with 3 other copyists last time and we placed a huge order to save $$$.

You CAN create a custom page size for the HP 5000 so you don't have to trim or worry about centering it. You can then edit your pagesizes.txt file so Finale will recognize the size as well. For example, I created a size called "Music manuscript" that both my printer and Finale understands. I then can just load the 9.5 x 12.5 paper into the bypass tray and print away. No hassles with centering and trimming.

Ward Baxter
Mercenary of Music

Date Joined Oct 1999
Total Posts : 280

Posted 7/2/2002 11:15 PM (GMT -5)

ah...yes, but has anyone found a way to get the 9 x 12 to print on the HP 5000 as a 2-up print on 12 x 18 and still maintained the proper margins as if going from letter to tabloid?

tim
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2000
Total Posts : 692

Posted 7/3/2002 12:10 AM (GMT -5)

Hi Ward

Not sure what you mean, my margins have always been fine. Do you mean having finale think it is still letter size but printing it to 2up 12x18? If so, yes I have done it. You must use the PS driver and not the PCL. It is a pain as the PCL used to work but it now gets screwed up when you enlarge using the driver. PS works well, just a bit slower.

So, either way no probs.

Tim

Bill Bentgen
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 1999
Total Posts : 175

Posted 7/3/2002 3:19 PM (GMT -5)

>I can still read the music and pretend
>to watch the conductor...
>
>Outstanding! Are you a brass player by
>any chance?

Close....double bass. It's a game. I know the conductor is following me, but I'll pretend I'M following HIM. That way, he'll keep hiring me.

Bill Bentgen
http://www.billbentgen.com

GT
It was some other guy.

Date Joined Feb 2001
Total Posts : 1434

Posted 7/3/2002 4:55 PM (GMT -5)

There it is. The psychology of the orchestra...

I lived in Chicago during the height of the Solti years, and I saw the Chicago Symphony perform under nearly all of the great conductors and quite a few of the 2nd echelon conductors. I spent a summer studying with the CSO's 2nd horn player and I once asked him why it was that I could rarely reconcile the music that I heard coming from the orchestra with the gestures that I saw the conductor making. He grinned at me and said, "We call 'em Greyhound concerts: Leave the driving to us!"

;-)

HBegun
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 1149

Posted 7/6/2002 7:18 AM (GMT -5)

>ah...yes, but has anyone found a way to get the 9 x 12 to print on the HP 5000 as a 2-up print on 12 x 18 and still maintained the proper margins as if going from letter to tabloid?>>

Set the HP driver's page size to 18 x 12 landscape (not 12 x 18 -- this is important). In Finale's Print dialog choose 2-up and "Ignore printer margins for N-up printing". This will place the pages properly for folded sheets.

Like "Fred" I buy paper custom-sized from an industrial print shop but I preferred to use folded double-sheets. I would have liked to use the NYC standard 9.5 x 12.5, but the 5000's maximum size is 12.25 x 18.5 so I made that the double-sheet size with individual pages measuring 9.25 x 12.25 (no one has complained about the missing quarter-inch).> I use 90-pound index paper in ivory, which comes in 500-sheet cases at 22.5 x 35 inches. The weight, thickness and color matches the Aztec MS paper I used as a hand-copyist. Each of these sheets yields 2 double- and 1 single-page sheets when cut (there is some waste). It's important that the double-sheets are cut in the right direction so that the fold will be along the paper's grain, not against it.

My supplier will sell me any quantity of paper he has in stock, but I have to buy whole cases if it's a special order. I usually get two cases at a time, giving me 5000 pages of music at about 7 cents a page. This lasts me between 6 months and a year. The hardest part is lugging 130 pounds of paper up to my 3rd-floor walk-up!

I created two custom paper sizes in the 5000's PCL driver: Double-Sheet and Single-Sheet. For some reason, the single needs to be set as 9.25 x 12.25 landscape (not portrait). I also use an additional driver "quick set" that reduces pages to fit on 8.5 x 11 paper for proofreading. My Finale templates are set to 9.25 x 12.25 (like Fred I added "MS Paper" to the pagesizes.txt file). I'm not sure why, but the 5000's PS driver won't accept anything larger than 12 x 18, so I use PCL instead. I don't find much of a difference in the quality and PCL seems to print a little faster.

Printing this way requires a little extra effort -- you have to print final odd-numbered pages separately and change the page size and n-up options, but the time I save by taping only every other page more than makes up for this. Also, I use half as much tape (which costs about 4-6 cents a page for artist's tape). Another advantage is that you can print two-sided (using Jari's JW Booklet plug-in) and staple the sheets together. This seems to be the preferred method for orchestral parts (I use a slightly lighter-weight paper for this).

Howard Begun
New York

Ric
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 1999
Total Posts : 485

Posted 7/7/2002 7:18 AM (GMT -5)

Somewhat unrelated, but

Does anyone know the relation between US units for paper weight (e.g., "90 pound") and EU units? (e.g., 80g/square meter).

As an alternative, what's the weight of plain "office" (not music) paper in the US? With a few calculations, this might clarify the unknown relation (supposing the weight is similar in the two continents).

Here in the EU, the most popular weight is 80g/square meter. Therefore, the standard 500-sheet package of 21x29.7cm A4 paper is very close to 2.5 kg.

I made the same question in another thread, but I got no answers. Apologies for reposting the same question.

Riccardo

--
Riccardo Distasi
Arranging and composing homepage:
http://distasi.cjb.net/

guser
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2001
Total Posts : 661

Posted 7/7/2002 7:25 AM (GMT -5)

Click me. Note particularly post 3 of 5.

Typical office/copy paper in the U.S. is '20 lb.' based on a 17" x 22" sheet size, which works out to 75.16 g/m².

Ric
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 1999
Total Posts : 485

Posted 7/7/2002 7:51 AM (GMT -5)

Thanks for your quick and helpful reply!

As a summary for everybody's information, based on your data and on the post you pointed me to, I can say that

US 20 lb office paper = 75g/square meter.

As for the thicker music paper, since I hear it usually is 90 lb or 80 lb, I assume it is based on "book" rather than "office" sizes -- otherwise, it would be as thick and heavy as the newspapers in the Flintstones. Therefore, I reckon it should be

US 90 lb music paper = 133g/square meter;

US 80 lb music paper = 118g/square meter.

Not too surprisingly, this is in line with what we use here in old EU:
80g/m2 for office, 120g/m2 or 140g/m2 when we need heavier, stronger
paper.

Riccardo

--
Riccardo Distasi
Arranging and composing homepage:
http://distasi.cjb.net/

HBegun
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 1149

Posted 7/7/2002 10:30 AM (GMT -5)

US pound ratings are the weight of 500 full-size sheets. Since different paper types (bond, text, cover, index, etc.) come in different sheet-sizes there is no direct correlation between pounds and g/m2.

The only 90-lb. paper is index (my choice for MS Paper) and it is 163 g/m2. It is equivalent to 43-lb. bond and 110-lb. text though those are not standard weights for those types. There is an 80-lb. text that is 120 g/m2.

Howard Begun
New York

Graeme Gilmore
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2000
Total Posts : 371

Posted 7/7/2002 5:02 PM (GMT -5)

Since most of my work is noncommercial, I use 8.5 x 11 paper. So far, I’ve only found the (expensive) Royal Silk in the 24 pound weight that has the ivory/natural color that is usual for music.

Some of the papers I have give the weight in both forms. I hope the following helps.

HP [Hewlett-Packard] Primium Choice LaserJet paper is 32 pounds or 120 g/m2 [the 2 is a superscript]. This is 8.5 x 11 paper. It only comes in white.

HP LaserJet paper is 24 pounds or 90 g/m2
This is 8.5x11 paper. It only comes in white.

Royal Silk Professional Series Natural is 24 pounds or 90 g/m2
This only comes in 100 sheet amounts but has a good color the manufacturer calls “natural.”

Graeme

Dick Brodfuehrer
Hack Arranger and C.O.G. (Chief Old Geezer)

Date Joined Jul 2000
Total Posts : 4687

Posted 7/7/2002 10:34 PM (GMT -5)

My work is for swing band/big band types. I like Hammermill Color Copy Paper. It is 28lb bond/70lb text/105g/m2.

It is white with a very nice finish and can be printed on both sides; however, I use only one side. It is available in 8 1/2 x 11 and 11 x 17. Printing is sharp and clear from my ink jet and from commercial copy machines (ie. Kinko's). And it is reasonably priced. My last order of 8 1/2 x 11 from OfficeMax was $15.99 for 500 sheets.

I used to use a heavier, 40lb bond, paper but got some complaints that it was too heavy. As one leader put it, "Our 'book' of several hundred charts is already too heavy." I have had several compliments on this paper, and no complaints --- so far anyway.

Dick

Fred G. Unn
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 1268

Posted 7/8/2002 4:24 AM (GMT -5)

International Paper has a chart listing all of the common weight sizes and the corresponding conversions. Here 'tis:
http://www.ippaper.com/runcalc_weights.html

Fred

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