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Ken Elias
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 24

Posted 5/29/2015 12:55 PM (GMT -6)

I'm starting to self-publish my compositions. I've been reading about paper size. Most published music is about 9 x 12 inches. But it's about impossible to find paper cut to that size. The most universal sizes close to that are US standard 8-1/2 x 11 or EU A4. Both of them are pretty small.

I also found these interesting instructions for a composition class on requirements for good sheet music: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/music-and-theater-arts/21m-301-harmony-and-counterpoint-i-spring-2005/study-materials/21m_300_manupap.pdf

On the imslp.org site the vast majority of downloadable public domain pdf files are 8-1/2 x 11.

So, is 8-1/2 x 11 the new default size for self-published music, even though it's not ideal in terms of musicians reading? It seems OK for parts. But for chamber music with a pianist having the score, way too many page turns or tiny notes.

I'm curious what other people are doing on this issue. I tried searching the forum for publishing but get either no returns or time-out error messages. So, I'm sorry if I'm posting something that's already been addressed lots of times. I just can't find it.

Sincerely,

Ken Elias
Three Rivers, CA

Derrek
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2009
Total Posts : 2347

Posted 5/29/2015 12:59 PM (GMT -6)

To search the Forum, make sure you are using the tech at the top of the topics list.

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Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 5/29/2015 1:06 PM (GMT -6)

I print my music as follows:

parts: always 9x12
chamber music scores: 9.5x12.5
orchestral scores: 11x14 (or sometimes, rarer, slightly larger)

I will never print any of my music in 8.5x11 unless it's a perusal copy, or just my own copy for proofreading.

You can get paper cut to specific sizes. Remember that your paper also needs to be of a certain thickness/weight.

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Zoots
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 385

Posted 5/29/2015 6:01 PM (GMT -6)

I'm not a publisher or composer.

However, I've scanned a lot of band music that was done on 9x12 paper which certainly gives more room and appears classier. With very few exceptions, I've always been able to get the music on a 8.5x11" page. Of course, some blank space will be truncated and sometimes a listing of the pieces comprising a medley, often at the bottom of the first page, may get partially cut. The music is always full-size so there is no problem reading it.

If you are going to provide your work so regular people can purchase it for download and print it themselves then you need tp ensure that it is printable on common printers.

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N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 5/29/2015 6:40 PM (GMT -6)

I agree with Michel's suggestions. There is a world of difference between laying out parts on a 9x12 page and letter size (8.5x11). If, however, your music is more complex, you might want to consider going larger, like 10x13.

Zoots brings up a good point as well. If you're supplying your music as PDF downloads, you need to make it easy for people to handle printouts.

If you could post a "typical" page, it might be easier to offer more apt suggestions.

N.

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Ken Elias
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 24

Posted 5/29/2015 8:44 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks to all for these comments.

My thoughts so far are: If people want to download it and print it themselves at 8-1/2 x 11 it's free. I could have an option to provide printed and comb-bound or taped-together versions at 9 x 12 or whatever for money. But that would mean I'd have to have two versions for everything.

I had an orchestral piece performed by the Tulare County Symphony (Visalia, CA) in 2006. I printed the score on 11 x 17. The notes were tiny, but the conductor didn't seem to mind. I used Docu-Bind combs in two sections to hold it all together. The parts were all on 8-1/2 x 11. I taped them with magic tape accordion-style. I didn't hear too many wrong notes.

When I had a violin sonata played I printed the piano part on 11 x 17 but sized the content as 11 x 13 and then cut it down after printing. I printed the violin part on 8-1/2 by 11. In these cases for one-off performances I've always taped the pages together with magic tape accordion-style so there's more flexibility for the performers in how many pages they show at once on the stand and where the page turns are.

The difference now is, it's possible that somebody I don't know far away may actually want to play my music, and I can't be there with tape and scissors to hand-craft the parts.

I did search for a source for 9 x 12 paper and couldn't find anything that looked suitable. The paper I've been using I like a lot, Xerox 28-lb. 11 x 17 Digital Color Expressions+ for the larger scores. For 8-1/2 x 11 parts I've been using Office Depot Premium 24-lb. With my print-on-one-side protocol it seems adequate as no notes showing through from the other side, and just plenty of paper up there on the stand..

Perhaps I should invest in a professional-grade hand-operated paper cutter that includes clamps and guides and all manner of bells and whistles to assure accuracy. I could then cut from my 11 x 17 paper anything smaller. I wonder if it would be accurate enough to get through my printer?

If I was a pro I'd accept investing more time and money into this. As an amateur I've got to figure what is the prevailing level of acceptance for common technology.

Thanks again for your thoughts. If anything I've added here inspires further comments, I'll be grateful..

Ken Elias
Three Rivers, CA
------------------------------------
Finale 2014, Sonar X3 Producer, Vienna Symphonic Library, Melodyne, Windows 7.

Ken Elias
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 24

Posted 5/29/2015 9:27 PM (GMT -6)

I just found a website called thepapermillstore.com. I'll look into what they have an report back...

Ken Elias

Ken Elias
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 24

Posted 5/29/2015 10:00 PM (GMT -6)

PapermillStore didn't work.

I found this in the Finale Forum... http://www.finalemusic.com/blog/dont-drop-the-ball-when-printing-your-music/ But the one option for paper of a non-standard size led to nowhere..

Michel, where do you get your paper??

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 5/29/2015 10:05 PM (GMT -6)

Ken, I have the advantage of being a certified member of the Canadian Music Centre (sorry, "certified member" is the translation I get for "membre agréé"... it sounds funny in English).

They have all the formats I could possibly need. of course, they also have multiple industrial sized printers that do everything from teeny tiny pages to poster-sized.

I set all my scores to the appropriate size (as listed in my above post) and send the PDF files to the CMC where they are then printed, bound, and my covers applied, along with all the official CMC logos and whatnot.

I've designed my own covers (with the generous help of a graphic designer friend) to give them a bit more individuality.

Maybe you could see if the American Music Center functions in the same way? (or if it still exists!)

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/29/2015 10:16 PM (GMT -6)

12 x 18 is a fairly common size of paper. You can cut that in half or fold and staple it for parts. A place like Office Depot or Staples won't have it, but a paper store will.

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Jolora
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 684

Posted 5/29/2015 11:15 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
12 x 18 is a fairly common size of paper. You can cut that in half or fold and staple it for parts. A place like Office Depot or Staples won't have it, but a paper store will.

Can you provide at least 1 source for stock 12x18 paper? Closest I can find is 13x19, which can be cut down easily, but...

Or do the "paper stores" custom cut it to order?

Joe

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Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/30/2015 12:10 AM (GMT -6)

Do you live near a large city? Look for paper stores. Kelly is one chain. If not, maybe ask your local printer where they get their paper. Or if there's a mom and pop stationary store, ask them if they'll order it.

Here's a place you can buy online. I've bought things there in the past.

www.limitedpapers.com

Finale 2011b, 2005, TGTools
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Post Edited (Motet) : 5/30/2015 12:27:40 AM (GMT-5)

Flint
silly bear

Date Joined Oct 2006
Total Posts : 3151

Posted 5/30/2015 12:40 AM (GMT -6)

12x18 is a standard size like 11x17 at any reputable paper store.

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If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

Michel R. E.
Registered Member

Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430

Posted 5/30/2015 1:04 AM (GMT -6)

Flint said...
12x18 is a standard size like 11x17 at any reputable paper store.

it's the paper stores of ill-repute you have to be careful about.

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 5/30/2015 7:10 AM (GMT -6)

Dear Ken,

I also self-publsh and went through the same soul-searching about the paper size. I finally went with the standard 8.5 x 11 for piano and chamber music and have had no difficulty with it in terms of layout, page turns etc. because:

the actual area of music on a page is 10.5 x 7.5 in most published music of these genres. This leaves adequate 1/2 inch margins for the sides, but only 1/4 inch on top and bottom, which is easily increased to 1/2 inch or more by good layout.

You can then use readily available 11 x 17 paper, print two pages to a side, including your cover on light cover-stock, fold the whole and staple (do invest in a pamphlet stapler). You then have a professional-looking score with no more taping or comb binding.

The actual area of music would be the same as on 9 x 12. So what's the problem? The only problem is in displaying your music in a sheet music store, where it would be dwarfed by much of the music around it. However, that might not be an an issue for you. And sheet music stores do tolerate the smaller size.

Best of luck with your composing and publishing,

John Ruggero

Ken Elias
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 24

Posted 5/30/2015 8:40 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks everyone..! This is so much valuable help. I'm reminded of what an incredibly knowledgeable and generous community Finale Forum is..

I can see using all of these suggestions at different times. And, I can proceed for now with what I have.

I wish I could hear all the music that you all write and play. I think it would be a joyous experience.

Ken Elias

N. Grossingink
Registered Member

Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991

Posted 5/30/2015 9:03 AM (GMT -6)

Ken Elias said...
I wish I could hear all the music that you all write and play. I think it would be a joyous experience.

Click on a forum member's screen name - that will take you to their personal profile where often they'll list a personal home page. Here you can see and listen to examples of their work, if they have posted them. There are some really gifted composers around these parts.

N.

Ken Elias
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 24

Posted 5/30/2015 2:09 PM (GMT -6)

Derrick, you wrote: "To search the Forum, make sure you are using the tech at the top of the topics list."
I don't know what that means. I only see a Search button in the upper right part of the main window, which takes me to a window with parameters for how many days, how many responses, keywords, etc. Then I either get "No records match.." or a timeout error.

John: Now that I've got a way forward for now, 8-1/2 x 11 printed side-by-side on 11 x17, I'm banging my head against how to do that. Found several posts by searching from Google rather than the Finale Forum search which I can't make work, and the clearest explanation was for Finale2011, and now there are enough changes in the menu structure etc that I can't translate it into 2014. Any tips?

Or, if anyone does now how to make the Search function work, and can bring up a couple of threads about how this is done and create a link in a Reply to this message I'd really appreciate it..

Ken Elias

Ken Elias
Three Rivers, CA
-----------------------------------------------------------
Finale 2014, Sonar X3 Producer, Vienna Symphonic Library, Melodyne, Windows 7

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/30/2015 2:16 PM (GMT -6)

Search with Google, adding site:forum.makemusic.com to the search terms.

The term of art for printing two pages side by side on wide paper is "2-up". If you have more than two pages, though, this needs to be two-sided and the pages arranged to be in the right order when the booklet is folded. Your printer driver may very well do that. Explore the printer options from the print dialog. Finale has a 2-up option but I haven't used it personally. Another solution would be to print to PDF and then use a PDF program to make the booklet.

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Ken Elias
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 24

Posted 5/30/2015 2:42 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks, Motet! I just had a breakthrough... Finally printing the two pages side by side.. The rest should fall into place I believe..

Yep, pretty much every search I do works better from Google than any website search function or forum search. That's a neat trick to put in the site: parameter.

Ken Elias
Three Rivers, CA
-----------------------------------------------------------
Finale 2014, Sonar X3 Producer, Vienna Symphonic Library, Melodyne, Windows 7

John Ruggero
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2000
Total Posts : 820

Posted 5/30/2015 7:51 PM (GMT -6)

Ken, I am glad the experts have answered your question. I have always done my printing at a store where the machines can handle light cover stock for the covers. I just lay the 8.5 by 11 sheets physically on the machine in the correct order. The correct order is an interesting thing in itself!

Graeme Gilmore
Registered Member

Date Joined Aug 2000
Total Posts : 371

Posted 5/30/2015 8:57 PM (GMT -6)

I have noticed that Hal Leonard publishes a lot of music on 8.5 x 11 paper. Their “Schirmer Opera Anthology: Arias for [Voice Type]” is an example.

But their “The Singers Musical Theatre Anthology” series is printed on 9 x 12.

The Opera Anthology series uses a smaller staff and note size than the Musical Theatre scores.

Graeme

Finale 2014d v/5030, Windows 7 64-bit Home Premium, GPO, TGTools, Patterson Plug-Ins, JW Plug-Ins

Motet
Isorhythmic

Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849

Posted 5/30/2015 10:07 PM (GMT -6)

John Ruggero has a point that some editions, such as Kalmus, often have huge margins in their 10 x 13 parts and so the music isn't much bigger than if it were printed on 8-1/2 x 11. It's nice to have a margin to write in, though./

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Jolora
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2009
Total Posts : 684

Posted 5/30/2015 10:27 PM (GMT -6)

Motet said...
www.limitedpapers.com

Thanks. I found Cougar opaque white smooth 100# 12-x-18 at this website (only 12x18 paper on the site). I also found it online at Stapes, but I'm certain the local store does not carry it.

Question: It's listed as "Cover" paper. Is 100# paper suitable for printing parts? I've never held 100# stock in my never-nicotine stained fingers, so I'm a little leery.

Eisengrim
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2011
Total Posts : 129

Posted 5/31/2015 1:32 AM (GMT -6)

I feel I'm stealing Michel R. E.'s thunder here, as he seems to have been the first to bring this to our attention (http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=432365), but you could also check out http://blackribbonprinting.com/, who do all the nitty-gritty work for you and have all the right paper sizes.

I've never used them so I've no idea how working with them is, but it's a thought. You could have downloadable versions for people who don't mind 8.5x11 and offer printed copies in other sizes through them.

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