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Dissonance
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   Posted 12/7/2015 5:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sometimes Finale's music spacing totally fails (see attached). To fix this particular measure, I will put hidden rests in layer 3.

The beat spacing chart would be dandy if music spacing didn't undo it. In general, it would be great if you could update the layout on only part of a score. Another great feature would be if you could tighten or loosen the spacing over a selected range of measures. Or even better, if you could do the same over a partial measure.
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Motet
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   Posted 12/7/2015 5:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Can you attach a .mus file of that measure?


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Dissonance
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   Posted 12/7/2015 5:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, but not until this evening because I'm headed out the door for a Christmas party.
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Motet
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   Posted 12/7/2015 5:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Cheers!

There are a few settings that can influence spacing, is why I ask.


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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/7/2015 5:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Many of us (but obviously, not enough) have asked for a LEAVE THIS ALONE, DAMMIT setting, that could be applied and keep areas from reverting when other things are changed or updated.

In the meantime, you could try turning off Automatic Update Layout, and set Manual Positioning to "Incorporate." You can update layout selectively by selecting the measures, and Command-U. Unfortunately, you can't update "all measures but this one."



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Motet
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   Posted 12/7/2015 6:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Are you sure update layout is the culprit rather than automatic music spacing? It's my understanding that "update layout" happens automatically when you open a document, regardless of "automatic" setting, so what you suggest would be futile. Or am I misinformed about this? I'm generally happy with what Finale does, so only turn it off during scroll-view music entry for speed. I do know with it off things can get hosed and confusing until the layout is updated again.

Also, there's the Manual positioning: incorporate/ignore/clear Music Spacing document setting, and the various "Avoid collision of" options, which is why I asked for a .mus file.


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Post Edited (Motet) : 12/7/2015 5:26:50 PM (GMT-6)

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Motet
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   Posted 12/7/2015 6:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(I did an experiment and the layout wasn't updated upon reopening the file, so perhaps I'm misinformed. I'm pretty sure somewhere here said as much at some point, though.)


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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 12/7/2015 9:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet,

I have Automatic Spacing and Update layout on, when I am entering in scroll view. When I go to page view, I will generally enter my first line of lyrics with click assign, and let it space. As you say, Finale generally does this pretty well. Then, I turn it off, while I enter additional lyrics, and make needed spacing adjustments. If the extra lyrics are crunched in a spot, I will apply spacing and update to that measure or system, only.

Keep in mind that most of my work is two or four staff choral music.



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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 12/7/2015 10:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What is so "totally failed" about this spacing?  All I did was hide the three rests on the second line, and adjust the before and after clef spacing to 48 EVPUs.  You could possibly tweak the accidentals on the second line, but it's not really needed, IMHO.

Sorry about the size.


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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/8/2015 7:28:22 AM (GMT-6)


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Derrek
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   Posted 12/7/2015 10:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Charles,
Please resize your image or do not have it print automatically. On some screens an image this size sends all the messages in the thread off the right side of the screen. We really do not need to see the music at this size--or we can click the link if we need to.


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OCTO.
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   Posted 12/8/2015 2:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dissonance,

Go to Document options - Music Spacing. Check Articulations.

Use Articulation Tool, hold L and click on the second eighth in the tuplet (either in the upper staff or in the voice 2 in the lower staff).
You will insert "pedal off" symbol ( * )
Move that symbol to the right, and apply spacing. Move it so that when you get desired spacing leave it there, right click on it and Make Hidden.

So it will always be included in the spacing and it will solve your problem permanently. However it is WORKAROUND, and indeed, Finale fails here.


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OCTO.
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   Posted 12/8/2015 2:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Actually it doesnt work when hidden. I will try with another symbol.

EDIT: OK, it works with any empty symbol. You need to have enough width red box in FAN settings for it to work!

So, IT WORKS!


NOTAT.IO - notation forum
Finale 2009c now (works better than 2011c) on OS X 10.6.8 and not thinking to upgrade any more until both computers die completely (iMac 21', MacBook Pro 13').

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 12/8/2015 1:48:08 AM (GMT-6)



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Jari Williamsson
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   Posted 12/8/2015 2:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dissonance said...
Sometimes Finale's music spacing totally fails (see attached). To fix this particular measure, I will put hidden rests in layer 3.

The beat spacing chart would be dandy if music spacing didn't undo it. In general, it would be great if you could update the layout on only part of a score. Another great feature would be if you could tighten or loosen the spacing over a selected range of measures. Or even better, if you could do the same over a partial measure.


In this example, you need to select BOTH staves when you apply spacing. Music Spacing will only create the beat chart based on the staves that are in the selection. It's pretty clear that this beat chart is created purely based on the content of the top staff.


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OCTO.
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   Posted 12/8/2015 3:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jari, regardless what you do with Beat Chart, every time you apply spacing it is reset.

The solution I offered works well.


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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 12/8/2015 8:34 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In my experiment, I just entered the notes as shown. The only adjustment needed was Document Options->Clefs->Spacing->Before and After set to 48 EVPUs. No fiddling with beat charts or any other such thing. AMS was turned on.


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Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/8/2015 7:37:18 AM (GMT-6)



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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/8/2015 9:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Charles, your notes are different from the OP's. Finale can indeed have trouble with conglomerations of accidentals between layers, especially when there are mixed rhythms. This is the result I get with the OP's notes and with the Loose Spacing library loaded. It's better, but Finale still doesn't deal properly with the clash of flats between the layers. It also looks as though Dissonance was trying to fit more measures than this onto one line. Spacing the system with fewer measures would help, but isn't always an option.


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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 12/8/2015 10:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Upon closer examination, Vaughan, you are right.  I was putting the Eb-Gb in the 2nd layer triplet, not in the 1st layer.  Even so, with that modification added, all it took to clean it up was a slight tweak with the Note Position Tool and the Accidental Mover Tool.



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GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

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Motet
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   Posted 12/8/2015 12:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The lower note is an Eb, not a Gb.

I couldn't really get satisfactory spacing even by hand.

... perhaps moving the lower note's flat way left past the stem (seems to survive Finale's respacing):


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Post Edited (Motet) : 12/8/2015 12:00:04 PM (GMT-6)


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Flint
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   Posted 12/8/2015 1:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've come across this a handful of times, my solution has been to insert invisible rests in a empty layer to force the spacing.


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Dissonance
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   Posted 12/8/2015 2:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was merely pointing out a Finale deficiency, and not looking to fix my score (since I know how to fix it), but since you asked, here's the culprit measure. It would be nice if it just worked a little better. I think in this particular situation, accuracy suffers for automatism.

Yes, spacing is more of a problem than update, but a score quickly becomes unintelligible without spacing. I usually keep the manual positioning set to clear, until I get to the final draft of my scores.

Flint, my solution was the same as yours (inserting hidden rests).

Motet, your solution to move the lower rest works well in tight spacing.

Charles, I'm not certain why the clef spacing would affect this. In the document options, my units are in inches and not evpus.

Jari, both staffs were selected when I applied spacing. The spacing issue takes care of itself by moving measures to the next system, but then the score is not tight enough.

Octo, I usually keep all the avoid collisions of selected.

Mike, I would like to have a leave-it-alone setting too.

Thanks everyone!
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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 12/8/2015 9:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You are right Motet. The lower note is an Eb not a Gb. I must have been on drugs, wait, yes I was drugged up with Nyquil for a bad head cold, and was just about to go to bed. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it. Sorry. I started all over from scratch, and hopefully now I have the notes entered as shown. The Note Position Tool handled all adjustments I needed to get the attached file. It survives a re-spacing operation.



Dissonance,

After entering the notes, even if some were incorrect, and after changing the clef to bass in that measure, I would have sworn I did a music re-spacing even when AMS was on, but the courtesy clef still collided with the previous notes. That is why I set the before/after spacing. It seemed to help. Maybe it was an illusion, because now when I do it without changing the clef spacing from the default, all appears OK. BTW, you can change between units with the dropdown in the Document Options window. Sometimes integer EVPUs are easier to comprehend than fractional inches.


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Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/8/2015 8:21:48 PM (GMT-6)


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Zuill
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   Posted 12/9/2015 2:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Unfortunately, the notes in the staves don't line up, which is not the way to go. So, back to square 1.

Zuill


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Vaughan
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   Posted 12/9/2015 9:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Indeed! Sorry, Charles, but you can't move the triplet in the LH so it no longer coincides with that of the RH, just to avoid a collision with the clef change. I've actually never had a clef change collide with the notes around it. If anything, I often find that Finale allows to much space for a clef change and I change this with TGTools' Add/Remove Space in Measure. Unfortunately, that plugin no longer works properly. In any case, not trying to put too many measures onto one system helps. Dissonance's example shows a much tighter measure spacing (not spacing algorithm).
@Motet: I don't really like moving the lower E-flat's accidental away from its note, especially since it's one of two E-flats an octave apart and played by the same hand. I'd prefer to move the notes so that there's enough room for the lower accidental.


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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 12/9/2015 10:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks to all you engraving experts for setting me straight. I have learned a lot with this experiment. As I've stated, I'm no expert, just a hobbyist, and certainly no keyboardist. I now have come to the conclusion that putting hidden eighth note rests in an unused layer, in both staves, is the best way to space this measure. This idea was, of course, proposed by Dissonance in his original post, and later by Flint. By doing so, Finale spaces the notes acceptably IMHO, where every thing lines up both vertically and horizontally, as I have come to know, it should. So, in that respect, given that it should not be necessary if every thing worked properly, adding the hidden rests in a different layer, if there is one available, ratchets the spacing from "totally failing", to being almost perfect. I did find, however, that applying Jari's JW Note Spacing plug-in with the Golden Ratio Scaling improves the aesthetics somewhat, at least to my eye.

[UPDATE]  Actually "Medium Allotment" looks better.  It opens up the 32nd notes more so the accidentals don't collide with the ledger lines as they do a little in the above image.


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Finale versions: 2011b.r2, 2012c.r13, 2014d.v5030

GPO4.02

 

Cakewalk SONAR X3

 

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

Post Edited (Charles Lawrence) : 12/9/2015 10:00:35 AM (GMT-6)


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Dissonance
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   Posted 12/9/2015 12:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This has been a fun conversation. Thank you all so much!
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