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Tritone
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   Posted 12/21/2015 6:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello,

I transcribed No.1 Scherazade 2nd movement from Nikolay Rimsky Korsakov Principles of Orchestration pp 3-4.

See attachment

Finale 2014.5
Windows 7
GPO

What I am finding is the Bassoons and Horns are too loud compared to what Garritan has done here -> www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/45357-MELODY-Lesson-3-Strings-Melody-in-Stringed-Instruments


I am trying to understand what I am doing wrong. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks

Updated file.

Post Edited (Tritone) : 12/22/2015 10:20:29 AM (GMT-6)



File Attachment :
No 1 - Scherazade 2nd movement.musx   152KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 150 time(s).
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Derrek
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   Posted 12/21/2015 8:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Have you tried using the Finale mixer to trim the volume of the bassoons to what you want?


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Tritone
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   Posted 12/21/2015 8:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Derrek said...
Have you tried using the Finale mixer to trim the volume of the bassoons to what you want?


I can do that. But then what point is the piano and ppp and ff if you are just playing with the mixer
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Jetcopy
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   Posted 12/21/2015 8:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tritone said...


I can do that. But then what point is the piano and ppp and ff if you are just playing with the mixer


The Garritan instruments are not all recorded at the same relative volume. Also, fff on a flute is not the same loudness as fff on a trombone. Use the mixer to set the relative volume of each instrument to something that you're satisfied with.


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Tritone
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   Posted 12/22/2015 9:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jetcopy said...

The Garritan instruments are not all recorded at the same relative volume. Also, fff on a flute is not the same loudness as fff on a trombone. Use the mixer to set the relative volume of each instrument to something that you're satisfied with.


imo, it should work right out of the box with no modification. How can someone tell what p, pp, ppp, pppp, f, ff, fff, ffff is if you have to play with the mixer level.
Dynamics will have no meaning.

Measure 19 and up, those Horns are just piercing.
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 12/22/2015 10:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Off topic-

You might want to check the notation in your file. There are a lot of ties between notes of different pitch. These should be slurs (Smart Shape Tool), not ties. Ties only combine notes of the same pitch into one long, uninterrupted note.

If you get these straightened out, it should make a difference in playback.

N.


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Post Edited (N. Grossingink) : 12/22/2015 8:34:52 AM (GMT-6)

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Ron.
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   Posted 12/22/2015 11:02 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tritone, you appear to have misinterpreted Jetcopy's suggestion. If you set up relative volumes of each instrument in the score manager you can overcome the difference in recording levels of various instruments. For example, I typically have to reduce the relative volume of woodwinds, especially clarinets, which appear to have been recoded at a much higher volume than strings. Once you have achieved a balance between different instruments, so that forte is the same level for all of them, then you can use dynamic expressions in your score and they will work properly.


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Tritone
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   Posted 12/22/2015 11:54 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...
Tritone, you appear to have misinterpreted Jetcopy's suggestion. If you set up relative volumes of each instrument in the score manager you can overcome the difference in recording levels of various instruments. For example, I typically have to reduce the relative volume of woodwinds, especially clarinets, which appear to have been recoded at a much higher volume than strings. Once you have achieved a balance between different instruments, so that forte is the same level for all of them, then you can use dynamic expressions in your score and they will work properly.


I see the Vol. setting in the score manager. It is and it works the same way as the mixer.

Why didn't GPO have the proper balance to begin with? 1 Horn > the entire String section?

I wonder if I have the wrong instrument and/or transposed incorrectly. Measures 19+, the Horn is at the end of the range and is piercing to the ear.
If the mixer was the solution. The mixer would mute the Horn.


I just noticed the in the example URL. They changed the key to the Horn at the end. The book didn't do that. Interesting.

Post Edited (Tritone) : 12/22/2015 9:57:51 AM (GMT-6)

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Ron.
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   Posted 12/22/2015 11:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Why didn't GPO have the proper balance to begin with? 1 Horn > the entire String section?"

Because how was Gary Garritan to know what mixtures of instruments different composers would want? Because some of the samples were recorded years apart. Because it is simple to adjust in the score manager to your personal preference.

Have you made the corrections to your score that N. Grossingink suggests?


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Tritone
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   Posted 12/22/2015 12:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...

Have you made the corrections to your score that N. Grossingink suggests?


Yes, I have. The OP attachment has been updated.
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Motet
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   Posted 12/22/2015 1:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...

Because how was Gary Garritan to know what mixtures of instruments different composers would want? Because some of the samples were recorded years apart.

I haven't used the Garritan stuff. Do the relative volumes vary a lot between different pieces of yours? Do you need to adjust relative volumes at different places in a single piece as instrumentation changes?

Probably different recording dates is not a reason, though. Volumes are normalized after the fact and it's easy to make two recordings the same, especially in the digital realm (that's what you're doing with the mixer, after all).


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Derrek
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   Posted 12/22/2015 1:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There is also the question of allowing for headroom, which is likely why so many of the percussion instruments are so quiet.


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ebiggs1
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   Posted 12/22/2015 1:54 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Off topic-

You might want to check the notation in your file. There are a lot of ties between notes of different pitch. These should be slurs (Smart Shape Tool), not ties. Ties only combine notes of the same pitch into one long, uninterrupted note.


Might be "off topic" but I have tried to get Finale programmers to realize this issue for years. They can't seem to comprehend it either.


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Tritone
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   Posted 12/22/2015 2:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ebiggs1 said...
"Off topic-

You might want to check the notation in your file. There are a lot of ties between notes of different pitch. These should be slurs (Smart Shape Tool), not ties. Ties only combine notes of the same pitch into one long, uninterrupted note.


Might be "off topic" but I have tried to get Finale programmers to realize this issue for years. They can't seem to comprehend it either.


ebiggs, I did make the update above.

The Horn for the first 10 measures is using a tie, afaik. He is the one I am having the most problems with.

Granted not everything is perfect, but neither is the score from the URL. Take a look. At the end, the Horn changes key, and there is a slow down in tempo when the score says "accel".
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Motet
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   Posted 12/22/2015 2:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ebiggs1 said...
"There are a lot of ties between notes of different pitch. These should be slurs (Smart Shape Tool), not ties. Ties only combine notes of the same pitch into one long, uninterrupted note."

Might be "off topic" but I have tried to get Finale programmers to realize this issue for years.


Interesting to consider what the ideal Finale behavior should be. I'm not sure it's straight-forward. It could refuse to create a tie between different pitches, but what about when you're entering them? It could I guess allow a tie forward to an empty measure in anticipation, and if you then entered a different pitch it could remove the tie. What happens if you want to change the pitch of two tied notes--would the tie disappear when you changed the first one? Or would it just be invisible in anticipation of the other note being changed to the same pitch? What if that doesn't happen--does the tie lurk hidden, or does Finale somehow look at the first note when the second is repitched?

Since this is really a case of a beginner's not realizing the difference between a tie and a slur (at least in Finale), I'm not sure it's much of a priority. I would rather see more serious problems fixed.


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Tritone
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   Posted 12/22/2015 3:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In the Score Manager, I tried 3 different device types of Horn.
And they all sound at the same level.

From my understanding of Orchestration. 4 Horns == 2 Woodwinds. But I am not hearing that here.
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 12/22/2015 3:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tritone said...

From my understanding of Orchestration. 4 Horns == 2 Woodwinds. But I am not hearing that here.


you're thinking of a balance "rule" that isn't actually set in stone.

The instruments are balanced so that each, on its own, has enough room to go from softest to loudest. this means that some instruments will be unnaturally loud when compared to others that might seem unusually soft.

For an orchestral piece, I set the volumes in the score manager to reflect a more realistic dynamic range:

generally, I lower the volume on clarinets and bassoons (they are, for some reason, recorded too loudly when compared to the other woodwinds).
I also generally lower the entire woodwind section by at least 10 points.

I bring the brass instruments UP by at least 10 points, if not 15.

The strings will generally be ok at the default setting.


Once this is done, the dynamics should give a more realistic sound.

it won't be perfect because they're not real instruments! if you want perfect, hire an orchestra.
But by adjusting the volumes in the score manager, you can get a pretty good sound.

by the way, the demo samples for the Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration pages on the Garritan website were not created in Finale, as far as I know.
they were done in a DAW, which means a lot of work went into adjusting volumes and whatnot.


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Motet
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   Posted 12/22/2015 4:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tritone said...

From my understanding of Orchestration. 4 Horns == 2 Woodwinds.

Is that what Rimsky says? In my experience, a horn is louder than a woodwind, and cannot play as softly. Also, each woodwind is different.


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Tritone
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   Posted 12/22/2015 4:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel R. E. said...

generally, I lower the volume on clarinets and bassoons (they are, for some reason, recorded too loudly when compared to the other woodwinds).
I also generally lower the entire woodwind section by at least 10 points.

I bring the brass instruments UP by at least 10 points, if not 15.

The strings will generally be ok at the default setting.


Thanks Michel. That was very helpful.
I adjusted it as you said, except Horn DOWN 50. lol.

I never expected it to match perfectly. But turning down the Horn 50% is quite excessive, don't you think?
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Tritone
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   Posted 12/22/2015 4:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Tritone said...

From my understanding of Orchestration. 4 Horns == 2 Woodwinds.

Is that what Rimsky says? In my experience, a horn is louder than a woodwind, and cannot play as softly. Also, each woodwind is different.



I am not sure. He gave it in general terms. It depends.

Almost at the begining of this page LINK->www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/45356-Lesson-2-GENERAL-REVIEW-Brass-Percussion-amp-Other-Instruments


NRK said...
c) Horn (in F). The tone of this instrument is soft, poetical, and full of beauty. In the lower register it is dark and brilliant; round and full in the upper. The middle notes resemble those of the bassoon and the two instruments blend well together. The horn, therefore, serves as a link between the brass and wood-wind. In spite of valves the horn has but little mobility and would seem to produce its tone in a languid and lazy manner.

Professor Belkin Comments: the Horn - The most common mistake of beginning orchestrators using the horn is to treat it is a bass instrument, which it is NOT. If should be thought of as a tenor/alto voice. The horn is only appropriate for the bass as a slow moving or static pedal. (In this role it has the advantage of being softer than the bassoon in its lowest register.)
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Motet
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   Posted 12/22/2015 4:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think that page is just saying that if you have double woodwinds, you typically have this much brass in your orchestra, if you have triple woodwinds, you typically have that much brass, etc. Those are just guidlines for instrumenting a piece rather than saying the various sections are equivalent in volume (notice he suggests 4 horns in both double-woodwind and triple-woodwind orchestras). "Double woodwind" means two each of flute, oboe, clarinet, and bassoon, by the way--eight instruments. Triple woodwind generally adds a piccolo, English horn, bass clarinet, and perhaps contrabassoon, but sometimes there are one or more of those in double-woodwind orchestras, and sometimes the second player doubles on one of those.

(It's "Scheherazade", by the way.)


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Post Edited (Motet) : 12/22/2015 7:14:13 PM (GMT-6)

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Ron.
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   Posted 12/22/2015 11:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Tritone said...

From my understanding of Orchestration. 4 Horns == 2 Woodwinds.

Is that what Rimsky says? In my experience, a horn is louder than a woodwind, and cannot play as softly. Also, each woodwind is different.


And each woodwind is different in different ranges. A middle C in an oboe can knock you out of your seat; whereas a middle C is a flute can barely be heard. They are quite the reverse in the upper regions.


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