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Ron.
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   Posted 1/3/2016 3:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
To quote Ms. Gould: "One complete slur should cover a whole phrase, so that it's full extent is immediately clear. Do not divide a slur between notes of a phrase, nor around tied notes. In full scores, divided phrase marks are sometimes used in cramped conditions, to save space. These should never be used in performance material, since they obscure the phrase length."

I do not consider an engraving example more than 200 years old to be definitive for contemporary practices.


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Motet
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   Posted 1/3/2016 3:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, but what is her discussion and rule leading to G above?


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Post Edited (Motet) : 1/3/2016 2:25:34 PM (GMT-6)

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 1/3/2016 4:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. wrote:

"I do not consider an engraving example more than 200 years old to be definitive for contemporary practices."

But my point was that I've never seen examples like G at all (= 0 years), except in Gould's book.

Ron. also quoted Gould:

"One complete slur should cover a whole phrase…"

I wish that she hadn't said that because confusion arises when "slurring" is equated with "phrasing", which are two different things. There are slurred groups that are small parts of musical phrases, and there slurs that actually span phrases. Slurs show bowing in string playing and legato in keyboard playing etc.; phrasing is something that is not notated, because it is too complicated to notate. But we all sometimes say "phrasing" when we mean "slurring", but it shouldn't have made its way into print.

What she meant to say is that contemporary practice is to include tied notes within slurred groups and not leave them dangling, although she seems to be somewhat flexible on the subject. But I think that contemporary practice has lost something of great value when two slurred groups can not join on tied notes.

I have attached an example by Beethoven, which covers all bases. (Sorry, you will have to enlarge it.) One sees that he is perfectly able to use long slurs that cover tied groups. But he doesn't always do that, as if following some arbitrary rule. Sometimes small slurred groups connect on tied notes, as if there were changes of bow direction to show sub-phrasing of the music. Gould gives an example very much like this to show what NOT to do. I often have the feeling that Gould's book would have been even better if it were more historically informed.

The first edition maintained Beethoven's slurring, as does the Schenker edition. Many so-called urtext editions "modernize" this by combining the two or more slurs into one long slurred group. I would call it "barbarize" it.


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Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 1/3/2016 3:08:17 PM (GMT-6)



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ttw
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   Posted 1/3/2016 5:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Perhaps I'm just old-fashioned but I find "D" way back in the thread easiest to read. If I saw the other versions, I'd probably wonder why that particular notation was used and why it was different from the "slur cover tied notes" rule.


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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 1/3/2016 5:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...

I have attached an example by Beethoven, which covers all bases. (Sorry, you will have to enlarge it.) One sees that he is perfectly able to use long slurs that cover tied groups. But he doesn't always do that, as if following some arbitrary rule. Sometimes small slurred groups connect on tied notes, as if there were changes of bow direction to show sub-phrasing of the music. Gould gives an example very much like this to show what NOT to do. I often have the feeling that Gould's book would have been even better if it were more historically informed.

The first edition maintained Beethoven's slurring, as does the Schenker edition. Many so-called urtext editions "modernize" this by combining the two or more slurs into one long slurred group. I would call it "barbarize" it.



Nothing in your posted example has any bearing whatsoever with the discussion here.
There are no lengthy tied notes in your example. There are no slurs that cover extended held/tied notes.
So what's the point?


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John Ruggero
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   Posted 1/3/2016 7:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Good question, Michel.

I generalized the topic to include the way contemporary practice handles ALL slurred tied groups, not just extended ones, because the extended example is just the tip of the iceberg. Contemporary practice is to not end a slur on the first of a set of tied notes, but always to continue over, whether it is only two tied notes or 8. It is only when it is 8 that it begins to look absurd, but even when it is just two tied notes there is really no pressing reason to slur over to the second tied note, and often good reasons to NOT do that as in the Beethoven example.

This contemporary practice is arbitrary and can be detrimental to the meaning of the notation. To see this in action, look at the example page (op. 10 no. 1) from the Henle edition and compare with the original edition which is attached.

www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/piano-sonatas-book-i-sheet-music/3762977

It is from bar 34 that the mischief really starts. Because the rule is to always slur over the tie, when there are sets of such short tied groups the tie must now extend over the entire group, completely negating Beethoven's "bowing" in separate three-note groups. Note that there is no indication on the page that what that player is seeing is not Beethoven's slurring.

I think that these long slurs over short groups in classic style music are oppressive, making heavy what should be visually light and giving the player a misleading view of the music.


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Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 1/3/2016 5:15:13 PM (GMT-6)



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Jolora
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   Posted 1/3/2016 9:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wow!!!

I never expected to generate this much discussion.

It's been fascinating, though.

Thanks, all.


Joe

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 1/5/2016 1:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For those interested in this subject, it is continued at:

notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87


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tbmartin
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   Posted 1/7/2016 10:02 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Late to the party, but I'd like to pick up the "cautionary G#" part of this thread. I think we all agree the cautionary is a good idea here: If someone misreads the slur as a tie, then they would continue on a G-natural. Safer to give the cautionary and prevent the wrong pitch.

I, however, always put a cautionary accidental in parentheses. Some will argue that it's extra clutter that conveys no meaning, but here's my take on it:

#G means: "This G should be played as G#, which is an exception to the key signature of this piece."
(#)G means" "This G should be played as G#, which agrees with the key signature and I'm telling you just as a reminder because I told you to play a G natural recently.

If cautionary accidents do NOT have parentheses, I envision the composer/engraver saying, "This G should be played as G#, and I don't give a rip whether you know if that's an exception or the normal situation. If you're not smart enough to keep the key signature in your head, then you're a worthless waste of concert hall space."

Ok, so that's a bit harsh... ;-) But I have made playing errors because of a cautionary that wasn't in parentheses. Having just seen "#G" a few seconds earlier, I've seen an unaltered G and played G-natural that sounded terrible. Looking back, I've found the #G was a cautionary that made me think that it was an exception, when in fact it was in agreement with the key signature. I then draw in my own parentheses and never make the same mistake again.

I will gladly accept that "unneeded clutter" to avoid that playing error. Every time. Others may make the opposite choice, and that's fine. But if I'm playing your music, I'll pencil in the parentheses in my part.


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Ron.
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   Posted 1/7/2016 11:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I avoid the whole issue by not using key signatures. So, no need for the extra clutter of parentheses ever. smilewinkgrin


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Ere
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   Posted 1/7/2016 12:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
tbmartin said...
But I have made playing errors because of a cautionary that wasn't in parentheses. Having just seen "#G" a few seconds earlier, I've seen an unaltered G and played G-natural that sounded terrible.

Well – when you made such a mistake, I could equally well have said to you,
"If you're not smart enough to keep the key signature in your head, then you're a worthless waste of concert hall space." :p

tbmartin said...
Others may make the opposite choice, and that's fine. But if I'm playing your music, I'll pencil in the parentheses in my part.

By all means, when playing my music, do pencil them in if it helps you! You have that choice.
However, I'd prefer to see no extra parentheses. Consider this: If I'm playing your music, and you've placed all cautionaries in parentheses, I don't have the choice to remove the parentheses because they're printed in ink and not removable with an eraser. I think that's unfair!


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Post Edited (Ere) : 1/7/2016 10:51:34 AM (GMT-6)

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tbmartin
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   Posted 1/7/2016 12:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ere said...
... Consider this: If I'm playing your music, and you've placed all cautionaries in parentheses, I cannot choose to remove the parentheses because they're printed in ink and not removable with an eraser. I think that's unfair!


That's what "white-out" is for! ;-)

Nice discussion! Always good to hear views from the other side of the aisle. And now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go practice. My 2016 goal is to waste less concert hall space! (tongue firmly in cheek!)


Terence
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loweredsixth
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   Posted 1/7/2016 12:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
tbmartin said...
Late to the party, but I'd like to pick up the "cautionary G#" part of this thread. I think we all agree the cautionary is a good idea here: If someone misreads the slur as a tie, then they would continue on a G-natural. Safer to give the cautionary and prevent the wrong pitch.

I, however, always put a cautionary accidental in parentheses. Some will argue that it's extra clutter that conveys no meaning, but here's my take on it:

#G means: "This G should be played as G#, which is an exception to the key signature of this piece."
(#)G means" "This G should be played as G#, which agrees with the key signature and I'm telling you just as a reminder because I told you to play a G natural recently.

If cautionary accidents do NOT have parentheses, I envision the composer/engraver saying, "This G should be played as G#, and I don't give a rip whether you know if that's an exception or the normal situation. If you're not smart enough to keep the key signature in your head, then you're a worthless waste of concert hall space."

Ok, so that's a bit harsh... ;-) But I have made playing errors because of a cautionary that wasn't in parentheses. Having just seen "#G" a few seconds earlier, I've seen an unaltered G and played G-natural that sounded terrible. Looking back, I've found the #G was a cautionary that made me think that it was an exception, when in fact it was in agreement with the key signature. I then draw in my own parentheses and never make the same mistake again.

I will gladly accept that "unneeded clutter" to avoid that playing error. Every time. Others may make the opposite choice, and that's fine. But if I'm playing your music, I'll pencil in the parentheses in my part.


As a performer, I prefer cautionary accidentals in parentheses. When they are not in parentheses it can make me question what key I'm in. That can cause errors when sight reading.


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Ere
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   Posted 1/7/2016 1:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I seem to be discussing, at the moment, with players of melodic instruments. I don't think it causes much clutter to have a pair of parentheses here and there in a single-voiced part.
But I'm a keyboard player. Can you imagine what is it like to try to sight-read a 4- or 5-voiced chord, if each chord tone had an accidental, and every accidental also had a their own set of parentheses around them? That's quite a lot of clutter to get through!


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tbmartin
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   Posted 1/7/2016 3:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ere said...
I seem to be discussing, at the moment, with players of melodic instruments. I don't think it causes much clutter to have a pair of parentheses here and there in a single-voiced part.
But I'm a keyboard player. Can you imagine what is it like to try to sight-read a 4- or 5-voiced chord, if each chord tone had an accidental, and every accidental also had a their own set of parentheses around them? That's quite a lot of clutter to get through!


You're absolutely correct: I'm thinking about my saxophone line, and in your situation with huge chords, I'd totally agree with you and would omit the ().


Terence
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John Ruggero
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   Posted 1/7/2016 4:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As a keyboard player, I share Ere's concern about clutter and use parentheses on rare occasions only, i.e. where the courtesy accidental might cause confusion. This might be decided on a case-by-case basis by putting oneself in the place of the player. There is a spot like that in measures 1-2 in Horn 1 of On the Trail given earlier at:

archives.nyphil.org/index.php/artifact/febff8a4-8062-4148-9e63-6382ede6fb07/fullview#page/1/mode/2up

Grofe uses parentheses here because most players will do a double-take at the courtesy #, at least at first reading. In all other places he omits the parentheses because the reason for the courtesy accidental is clear. [The one exception (in Trp. 3) appears to be an error.]

Why he felt that a courtesy accidental was actually necessary here is an interesting question.


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Motet
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   Posted 1/7/2016 7:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not sure why the the C# is needed in bar 2 for Horn 1. Is it because of the Bb for Horn 2 the previous bar? Horn 1 is not going to pay any attention to that note.


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John Ruggero
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   Posted 1/8/2016 2:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Maybe the horn parts are double-staffed 1-2, 3-4 and he was afraid that Horn 1 WOULD be influenced by the Bb? Or because the voice leading for Horn 1 is different from everyone else?

I don't get it either.


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Ere
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   Posted 1/8/2016 4:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Or maybe the sharp was added by mistake.


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Motet
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   Posted 1/18/2016 6:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I got my copy of "Behind Bars" the other day and am enjoying browsing through it. For posterity, I'd like to clarify what I think is a slight misrepresentation above of what she says. While she agrees that slurring over the entire tie is preferable, in the case of long ties ending or beginning the slur, she deems it "acceptable" in the score to not include the tie "in cramped conditions."

For a tie ending a slur, she sanctions both of these.



And here is the example of a tie beginning a slur:



She does state that these alternatives "should never be used in performance material, since they obscure the phrase length." While that's certainly desirable, I'm not sure I agree with "never" in the case of very long ties such as my example earlier in the thread.


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Post Edited (Motet) : 1/18/2016 4:47:55 PM (GMT-6)


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tbmartin
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   Posted 1/18/2016 9:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
...
She does state that these alternatives "should never be used in performance material, since they obscure the phrase length."


I'm not sure what Gould means by the phrase "should never be used in performance material". What purpose is there for music notation other than performance? I can think of an "educational purpose," but wouldn't you want to show things correctly, especially for an educational purpose? And if you're purposely showing incorrect notation for educational reasons, then every rule can be broken to make your point.

I don't own a copy of Gould's book, so perhaps she explains that phrase elsewhere? Or perhaps I'm just being dense? (It's been known to happen ;-) )


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Zuill
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   Posted 1/18/2016 9:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I had the same thought. What is notation for but performance?

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   Posted 1/18/2016 10:33 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I believe she's considering "parts" to be performance material, as opposed to a score, where shortcuts/kludges can be used with impunity.


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If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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tbmartin
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   Posted 1/18/2016 11:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...
I believe she's considering "parts" to be performance material, as opposed to a score, where shortcuts/kludges can be used with impunity.


Perhaps that is what she intends.


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Motet
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   Posted 1/19/2016 12:06 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's what I assumed. Though a conductor performs from a score in a sense, the difference in slurs is probably not going to impact what they do.


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