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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 1/22/2016 4:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For fun I tried the "Find parallel motion" plug-in on a piece in four-part harmony with this result:



Anyone use this? Any idea what it thinks it sees? What is meant under "staff"?

(BTW, it would be useful if it looked for direct fifths and octaves as well.)


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart


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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 1/22/2016 4:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
it's a pretty pointless add-on.
it sees parallels where there are none.

in this case, it's seeing that there is an E in both soprano and alto, and there is a C in soprano and tenors.

it does not distinguish parallels between actual voices but looks at ALL notes as though it were a single line.
it's either highly defective, or the person who designed it didn't understand counterpoint.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 1/22/2016 4:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the confirmation. It seems like such a thing would be very useful to first-year harmony students.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 1/22/2016 5:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So are "eyes". That's the tool I used in first-year harmony. When have we given up on good old brain-power for students?

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Derrek
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   Posted 1/22/2016 6:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
+1 for Zuill!


Finale 2014d - Windows 7
GPO 4, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Motet
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   Posted 1/22/2016 7:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What do your eyes think of the fifth between soprano and bass from beats 2 to 3?


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 1/22/2016 7:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
What do your eyes think of the fifth between soprano and bass from beats 2 to 3?


I think it's movement from a diminished 5th to a perfect 5th which places the passage on the border of acceptability.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) now using 2012 under Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Zuill
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   Posted 1/23/2016 2:38 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There are many factors involved. The distance between Bass and Soprano (compound interval) is one. Also, the parallel third between Bass and Tenor gives less exposure to the Bass/Soprano movement.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets



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   Posted 1/23/2016 6:54 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel R. E. said...
Motet said...
What do your eyes think of the fifth between soprano and bass from beats 2 to 3?


I think it's movement from a diminished 5th to a perfect 5th which places the passage on the border of acceptability.


It would still make me wince if I heard it ...


Gareth J. Green

Fin2014c
Windows 7

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Derrek
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   Posted 1/23/2016 12:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
+1 Gareth
I was just about to ask Motet, "What do your ears say/"


Finale 2014d - Windows 7
GPO 4, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Motet
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   Posted 1/23/2016 12:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The 4-part harmony sounds OK to me (I did not write this).


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 1/23/2016 1:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Personally, my ears never had a problem with many parallel or direct 5ths or octaves. Context is what counts. The literature is full of them, but when it works, it works. The guidelines are not rules. It's an artist who makes the judgment call.

Zuill

P.S.: Just perused a few Bach chorales to confirm my suspicion. I recall my theory professor getting irritated when I would find such examples. So many years ago.


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 1/23/2016 6:42:57 PM (GMT-6)

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Perotinus
"The ends of the earth have seen it all!"



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   Posted 1/23/2016 11:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Then there are all those pieces written by my namesake and his contemporaries. Brilliant works, but not up to the straightjackets that started in the 15th-16th centuries.


Perotinus

Finale 2014d,
Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 1/24/2016 2:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm pretty ignorant of the Notre Dame school, but organum isn't really counterpoint, is it?


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Perotinus
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   Posted 1/24/2016 8:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Depends on how strict a definition of counterpoint you will allow. In Perotin's four-part organa, for example, there are some amazing contrapuntal passages among the upperthree parts (the segment on [Ad]iu[va] in his "Sederunt principes," for instance). Numerous conducti are also adventurous, and thirteenth-century motets thrive on the independence of their various parts.


Perotinus

Finale 2014d,
Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit

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Peter Bowron
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   Posted 12/1/2016 2:16 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not sure I agree with the criticism of the tool - I've just started using this, and as Michael R.E said, it's picked the parallel motion between a couple of different voices. That's what the tool is supposed to do - under certain conditions parallel 5ths and octaves are considered undesirable. If you do a piano reduction, you will see the motion more clearly. I have an old accompaniment writing book by William Lovelock which gives many examples. So, the piano reduction of the piece nominated would be consecutive octaves in the RH, which are acceptable according to my source. They are rules that can be broken, just use your ears and maybe try out some classical solutions if you think it can be improved. I am finding the tool useful when the desired accompaniment is arpeggio form - found one in my first two bars that I'd missed!
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Motet
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   Posted 12/1/2016 3:11 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the objection was that there are a lot of false positives.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 12/1/2016 3:53 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter Bowron said...
Not sure I agree with the criticism of the tool - I've just started using this, and as Michael R.E said, it's picked the parallel motion between a couple of different voices. That's what the tool is supposed to do - under certain conditions parallel 5ths and octaves are considered undesirable. If you do a piano reduction, you will see the motion more clearly. I have an old accompaniment writing book by William Lovelock which gives many examples. So, the piano reduction of the piece nominated would be consecutive octaves in the RH, which are acceptable according to my source. They are rules that can be broken, just use your ears and maybe try out some classical solutions if you think it can be improved. I am finding the tool useful when the desired accompaniment is arpeggio form - found one in my first two bars that I'd missed!


I think you missed my criticism of the "feature".

if there is an octave between your soprano and alto, let's say both D, then on the next beat an octave between soprano and tenor, for simplicity's sake E in both voices, the plugin will mark those as "parallel octaves", which they are not. For octaves to be parallel they must be between the same two voices. In our example it would have to be D followed by E, in both the soprano and alto.

Applying the plugin to a 4-staff choral score will bring up more "false positives", as Motet has called them, than actual parallel octaves.

You could use the plugin to check the soprano and alto staves, or the alto and tenor, or the tenor and bass staves, but you cannot let it run all four staves at once.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 12/1/2016 5:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
All of which explains its removal from Finale 25. It didn't work.


Finale v.25.1, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.11.6 / 10.12.1)
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