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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 3/18/2016 10:47 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is more a stylistic/notation question than a Finale question, but I don't belong to any other musical communities and thought I'd see what you guys think.

Sometimes I need to jump to the sign at the end of a section, then jump to a coda at the same place next time around. It's been a lot of years since high school band... is it okay/valid notation to place a D.S. al Coda and a To Coda in the same measure? If so, would you just stack the D.S. al Coda over the To Coda?

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Jetcopy
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  		   Posted 3/18/2016 11:04 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've never seen it done the way you describe. Instead I would use repeat signs. Just repeat the desired section of music and the 2nd time it'll just continue past the repeat.

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Flint
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  		   Posted 3/18/2016 11:19 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Given how easy it is to copy music (especially if you're just copying it verbatim), why would you bother with complicated musical roadmaps that just increase the odds that someone is going to mess it up?

Perhaps if you're trying to squish it into a marching flip folder format, but otherwise?

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If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
 

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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 3/18/2016 11:41 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Great points, thanks guys. I pretty much just do chord charts for pop music and as Flint says, I never want to hand out a chart that's confusing to navigate, but I do like to keep my charts down to a 2-page spread, so finding a coda is usually preferable to a page flip if it'll save me an extra page. In this case, the flip is probably unavoidable anyway, so I'll just move the coda jump ahead by 8 bars and lengthen the coda.

Thanks again!

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N. Grossingink
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  		   Posted 3/18/2016 1:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Move the To Coda sign ahead (towards the beginning) by one measure. Insert 1 measure at the start of the Coda and copy the measure where the DS occurs (the measure after the newly repositioned To Coda) to that inserted measure.

N.

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Post Edited (N. Grossingink) : 3/18/2016 1:11:18 PM (GMT-5)

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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 3/18/2016 6:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That makes sense, N., thank you!

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Zuill
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 12:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A repeat sign is actually more appropriate here. No need for the D.S. and To Coda. A simple repeat is the norm. Maybe I'm not understanding the situation, as it appears the following bar is the Coda. What am I missing?

Zuill

P.S.: The attached picture is what the OP is suggesting. A simple repeat would be better than this.

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Post Edited (Zuill) : 3/18/2016 11:41:05 PM (GMT-5)


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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 9:33 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Your example is essentially correct and a repeat would certainly work, but, of course, the chart is much longer, and using repeats would have required a 3rd ending much farther into the piece than I'm accustomed to seeing. I'm used to hunting down a coda off in the nether regions of a chart, but another ending, not so much.

At any rate, that whole D.S./Coda situation was just a misguided attempt to compress a chord chart beyond reasonable limits, and has since been filed under the heading, "Don't try this at home."

Thanks for your response, Zull!

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Zuill
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 9:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I use DS al Coda without problems. Maybe if we had more information we could have been of more help. I avoid writing things out again for many reasons, not the least of which is saving paper.

Can you post the file? You can remove all the notes but just leave the blank measures so we can see the layout and maybe suggest the most efficient approach.

Zuill

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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 12:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sure, that would be great. I never want to ask anyone to do my work for me, but I'd be happy to learn how to do something better. I've attached the chart with the original stacked DS al Coda and To Coda in PDF and Finale 2007 format so maybe you can make out what I was going for.

Basic structure is:

A: Verse
A: Verse
B: Chorus
A: Verse
A: Verse
B: Chorus
C: Bridge

Finale 2007
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File Attachment :
I Will Exalt - Coda Question.MUS   43KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 329 time(s).

File Attachment :
I Will Exalt - Coda Question.pdf   21KB (application/pdf)
This file has been downloaded 199 time(s).
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Motet
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 3:18 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think I would just write "D.S." and leave out the other "to coda" line. It seems implicit that you'd obey the D.S. only once, rather than taking it as an infinite loop. This is reinforced by your labelled 4 endings. The only worry, which is a separate issue, is that normally after a D.S. you don't take any repeats (like the third movement of a symphony), but your ending labels do address that.

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Post Edited (Motet) : 3/19/2016 2:34:34 PM (GMT-5)

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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 4:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
It seems implicit that you'd obey the D.S. only once


See... I didn't know that! So after taking the D.S., the reader would ignore the D.S. next time around and just blow past it into the next section? That's perfect. Since there would no longer be a need for a coda, instead of D.S. al Coda I'd use D.S. al Fine, or simply D.S. (no al Fine)?

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Zuill
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 5:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When do bars 23 and 24 play? This is a confusing chart.

Zuill

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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 6:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zull said...
When do bars 23 and 24 play? This is a confusing chart.


They don't, and that's another point, I guess. My contemporaries and I aren't great readers, and I'm in the habit of placing codas at the beginning of lines to make them a little more obvious to find on the fly. Sometimes that does leave lines with a couple of empty, unplayed measures after a D.S., which usually doesn't create a stumbling block since the chart navigation never really leads to them.

The alternative would be to adjust all the measure spacing to push the coda onto a new line, or to place the coda in the measure immediately following the D.S.. The former would be a bit of a pain, and while probably correct, the latter just makes things seem a little... I dunno... confusing?

If I wanted to write it properly, though, should bars 23 & 24 be deleted, moving the coda to the measure immediately following the D.S.? Should a chart never have a blank measure, even when navigation would never lead you to it?

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RVS Lee
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 6:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Aside from Zuill's question, the chart as you've laid it out does what you want it to do, but it took me a minute to get it. Either way, it looks like the "To Coda"/Coda sign is superfluous. Depending on the ensemble and the amount of rehearsal available, I'd probably suggest -

(for maximum readability, no explanation necessary) write out the internal repeat (5- 12) and replace the DS with one big repeat. It'll go to a page and a half, but is that a problem?

(to save the paper) use a custom text "DS al fine (take repeats)". You still won't need the "to Coda", and can/should drop the "3." and "4." repeat indications...
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Motet
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 7:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>"DS (take repeats)"

I like that (no "al fine," though--that's for when the piece ends in the middle).

I sing in an amateur chorus and choral music marketed to such groups (and high school) has to be the worst-notated genre of music. In addition to outright notation errors and wrong notes, it seems like we're forever flipping pages back and forth for complicated roadmaps (the case here is only mildly complicated by comparison, though).

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Post Edited (Motet) : 3/19/2016 6:18:54 PM (GMT-5)

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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 8:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Boy, I don't know why I'm always so hesitant to reveal my ignorance - I learn so much when I do!

RVS Lee said...
write out the internal repeat (5- 12) and replace the DS with one big repeat


Normally I would have, but I was originally trying to compress a 3-page chart into a 2-page chart and was going for brevity over readability. I absolutely agree with all the comments about keeping the chart simple and not doing a bunch of unnecessary jumping around! I work with a guy on occasion who provides charts, and this guy would apparently rather take a beating than use a second page for a chart. His charts are nearly incomprehensible, but they actually do read correctly once you work out where all the repeats and jumps are. Personally, I don't want to have to work that hard to read through a piece of music, so I try to write simply.

Motet said...
no "al fine," though--that's for when the piece ends in the middle


Thanks Motet, I didn't know that, either.

Guys, thanks so much for educating me on this. I never get to work with legit musicians so all I know is what I remember from school 45 years ago (and I really wasn't much paying attention then) and what I've absorbed reading other people's charts on occasion. It's been great getting some tips from real musicians today.

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RVS Lee
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  		   Posted 3/19/2016 10:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RE: spacing issues and the (non) mm. 23-24 -
Unless you're trying to play with people's minds (which I admit has its uses), don't include measures that don't get played. Alternatives:
Split 17-22 three to the system...
If you want to accent a 4 bar/2 bar phrase, but hate over-wide spacing, use the page layout tool to right-indent the 2 bar system...
Both are perfectly legit.
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Peter Thomsen
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  		   Posted 3/20/2016 2:09 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Chuck Mayo said...
Zull said...
When do bars 23 and 24 play? This is a confusing chart.


They don't, and that's another point, I guess. My contemporaries and I aren't great readers, and I'm in the habit of placing codas at the beginning of lines to make them a little more obvious to find on the fly. Sometimes that does leave lines with a couple of empty, unplayed measures after a D.S., which usually doesn't create a stumbling block since the chart navigation never really leads to them…

Chuck Mayo,

I suspect that you are not familiar with the plug-in “Create Coda System”?

Plug-Ins menu > Measures > Create Coda System…

Peter

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Chuck Mayo
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  		   Posted 5/2/2016 8:31 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>>I suspect that you are not familiar with the plug-in “Create Coda System”?

Peter - Sorry, didn't get a flag that anyone had replied back to this thread and just found your response. I actually wasn't, but found it in the meantime looking for a way to create multiple segnos & codas (had to mash three charts into a medley and didn't want to re-do all the navigation). "Create Coda System" is pretty cool, thanks!

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Jolora
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  		   Posted 5/3/2016 6:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jetcopy said...
I've never seen it done the way you describe. Instead I would use repeat signs. Just repeat the desired section of music and the 2nd time it'll just continue past the repeat.


Plus one, from me. Why would yo think using a coda would be less confusing than just repeat signs?

Joe

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