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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 5/24/2016 4:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeremy,
Thanks for that info. As a not-cutting-edge kind of guy, what will 64-bit and multi threading do for me?



Mike Rosen
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Motet
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   Posted 5/24/2016 4:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Playback doesn't get me excited, no matter how good it is, nor can I fault Finale for not rendering a drum roll optimally. I'm probably in the minority, though, so I'm sure it's a shrewd business decision. As long as it's not at the expense of everything else.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 5/24/2016 5:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike,

It means that the program can actually access all the processing of a modern computer. Finale is only able to access one core. Sibelius uses one for notation and one for playback, so two. Dorico can access all your computer's cores and spread the processing load accordingly. On top of all that, the way they've programmed Dorico, it only has to redraw the section of the score that is visible on the page. Finale has to redraw the entire score for every edit. We've all seen these issues.

Motet,

First of all the playback stuff is relegated to an entirely different section of the program, so it acts as a deeper layer you can use or never look at. And playback alone is not really what gets me excited. It's that it offers full cc editing with controller lanes, it lets you change note durations for playback without changing the appearance on the page, it lets you deeply program keyswitching and other triggers through expression maps. All this is stuff that is usually only accessible in a DAW, but now it's available in a professional notation package. Honestly, I almost don't care about all the notation and engraving stuff. I can do all that happily in Finale as I currently do. I'm looking forward to finally having a more musical way to write and still have access to most of the features of production software. That means you can have submixes for each orchestra section with different EQs, compression, and reverb. I've always dreamed of being able to work in a DAW using speedy entry and all the other niceties of notation editing. Just think how much easier it will all be to deal with.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.9.5

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 5/24/2016 5:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Playback doesn't matter to me, but I hear you. It does sound good for those that want it. But it means that Steinberg is putting a lot of programmer effort into that rather than creating printed music.

Redrawing just what's on the page has nothing to do with threading or modern programming practices, of course.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
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Derrek
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   Posted 5/24/2016 5:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Since Dorico is using the Steinberg CuBase engine for playback, the Dorico developers do not have to put that much effort into it at the expense of the program as a whole.


Finale 2014d - Windows 7
GPO 4, JABB 3, World Instruments
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“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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musikai
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   Posted 5/24/2016 6:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeremy Levy said...
I've always dreamed of being able to work in a DAW using speedy entry and all the other niceties of notation editing.


Very fresh, but Reaper's got a (simple) Notation Editor added. No Musicxml import or export at the moment.


--
Windows7 Pro, Lubuntu 15.04, Sibelius 7.1.3, LibreOffice 4.4.7, openOffice 4.1.2
Free Project: LibreOffice Songbook Architect (LOSA)
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Jeremy Levy
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   Posted 5/24/2016 7:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
All the major DAW's have notation editors. And they all suck. I'm talking about all the stuff we take for granted in Finale, like option clicking measure selections, easily filtering dynamics to copy and paste, exploding music, imploding music, repitch tool, etc. There's a long laundry list of stuff that you just can't do in a sequencer that all pertains to writing music.


Jeremy Levy
Composer, Arranger, Orchestrator
Los Angeles, CA
www.jlevymusic.com
Finale 2011-2014.5
OSX 10.9.5

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CraigP
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   Posted 5/24/2016 11:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeremy Levy said...

First of all the playback stuff is relegated to an entirely different section of the program, so it acts as a deeper layer you can use or never look at. And playback alone is not really what gets me excited. It's that it offers full cc editing with controller lanes, it lets you change note durations for playback without changing the appearance on the page, it lets you deeply program keyswitching and other triggers through expression maps. All this is stuff that is usually only accessible in a DAW, but now it's available in a professional notation package. Honestly, I almost don't care about all the notation and engraving stuff. I can do all that happily in Finale as I currently do. I'm looking forward to finally having a more musical way to write and still have access to most of the features of production software. That means you can have submixes for each orchestra section with different EQs, compression, and reverb. I've always dreamed of being able to work in a DAW using speedy entry and all the other niceties of notation editing. Just think how much easier it will all be to deal with.


Jeremy, I am with you. I want to get the music entered quickly and cleanly, then work on the sound. That isn't just to produce a high-quality rendering (although that is very important, with the bar being raised every year). As I dial in the playback, I often find things that would come across better if notated differently or voiced in a different way. This is simply the next step in auditioning / quality improvement. The more of this I can do, the better the composition/arrangement will sound the first time the musicians see it. And it is this part of the iterative process that has been practically impossible with the DAW being so far removed from the notation programming.

This is all quite ironic because Daniel Spreadbury clearly has had very little interest in the playback. His passion is all the fiddly minutia built up from centuries of engraving art. But because the bills are being paid by one of the leaders in DAW technology (Steinberg), and that company in turn is owned by one of the biggest musical instrument companies (Yamaha), people with a broader vision of music technology have obviously given Daniel some "free advice" if you know what I mean. And I do believe that much of this was inherited almost automatically in the process of incorporating the Steinberg software as the main playback engine.

Regardless of how they got to this place, it is the right answer and every other notation supplier ought likewise to be addressing the broader field of music technology. The idea of a stand-alone notation program is as archaic as a word processor that doesn't allow graphics, tables, and other objects. (I know a guy who still uses Windows 95 and WordPerfect.)

Post Edited (CraigP) : 5/24/2016 11:06:50 PM (GMT-5)

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CraigP
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   Posted 5/25/2016 12:05 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
Playback doesn't matter to me, but I hear you. It does sound good for those that want it. But it means that Steinberg is putting a lot of programmer effort into that rather than creating printed music.

Not necessarily. Surely we would agree that Dorico required at least the minimal playback capabilities we find in Sibelius and Finale (i.e. simple mixers, a few instruments, some limited effects, the ability to render WAV or MP3 files and a minimally useful MIDI editor.) As one of the leading DAW suppliers (Cubase and Nuendo as flagship products), Steinberg already had developed vast software component libraries to do these things on a reusable basis.

I would wager that the Dorico team spent much less time and effort interfacing to the Steinberg technology than if they had tried to develop even the most minimal capabilities on their own.

Moreover, this means that many enhancements in the core Steinberg technology are likely to end up as features within future Dorico versions, more of less automatically.

Post Edited (CraigP) : 5/24/2016 11:08:46 PM (GMT-5)

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Derrek
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   Posted 5/25/2016 11:51 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Daniel has already said that long-term plans envision a more-or-less seamless ability to use Dorico and Cubase together.
(That may be one reason for postponing chord symbols, since Cubase has a chord module that Steinberg may want Dorico to feed into.)


Finale 2014d - Windows 7
GPO 4, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Richard N.
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   Posted 5/25/2016 1:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The YouTube video of Daniels recent presentation on Dorico is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jswPADssvhc

It is long but interesting to see a different approach to putting an engraving program together - and gives perhaps a better idea of what is automatic and what is customisable by the user. Some things I like, some I don't.


Richard


Finale 2014.5 ~ S******* 8.3 ~ Sonar ~ Windows 10
Real Instruments = Rath custom R4F trombone ~ Bach Strad LT16MG Tenor Trombone ~ Holton 181 Bass Trombone ~ Getzen Bass Trumpet

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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
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   Posted 5/25/2016 1:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's like that with any thing "somethings I like some things I don't." I'd like to have features of both Finale and Sibelius.....best of both worlds and make me quite happy.


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.2.0, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)update finally installed]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
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GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
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M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
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Richard N.
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   Posted 5/25/2016 1:41 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Totally agree Ralph.


Richard


Finale 2014.5 ~ S******* 8.3 ~ Sonar ~ Windows 10
Real Instruments = Rath custom R4F trombone ~ Bach Strad LT16MG Tenor Trombone ~ Holton 181 Bass Trombone ~ Getzen Bass Trumpet

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John Ruggero
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   Posted 5/25/2016 5:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
After watching the Dorico video, I see little that I don't like, but much that I have wished for for years in Finale. It looks too good to be true. There must be a deal-breaker in there somewhere (chord labels wouldn't be one); but I really hope there isn't.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014d (Finale 2011 as a backup) with GPO 4
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The better the composer, the better the notation.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 5/26/2016 3:56:41 PM (GMT-5)

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Derrek
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   Posted 5/26/2016 10:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was just wondering what to do with my afternoon, and your post just reminded me: watch the Spreadbury video.


Finale 2014d - Windows 7
GPO 4, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
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   Posted 5/26/2016 11:24 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yes, thanks for sharing that link. Did not know it existed until your post.

Daniel talking about Steinbergs new forthcoming Notation program.

I guess this was the talk given at the MOLA conference?
Little surprised that Philip has not listed on his Sibelius Blog yet.
Have not heard anything from the blog site since the conference......maybe he is ill?
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=jswPADssvhc


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.2.0, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)update finally installed]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

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