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castellanos
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   Posted 6/26/2016 1:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi.
I'm working with a friend in a project for Finale and Sibelius, the goal is to publish a piece by the Argentinian composer Juan José Castro.
We are working with the manuscript which has some mistakes.
We came across with this bar:



Forgetting the whole notes which are not the problem here, I think it should sound like broken octaves effect.
I believe the composer wrote a rhythm mistake, the right hand should begin after the left hand and with an 8th note (triplet), so the RH has a kinda offbeats triplets.
I had a hard time trying to figure out how to write this bar correctly, either in Finale or Sibelius.
The closest I get is this:



I hope this is what the composer intended, but may be there is an easy way to do it.
Some other ideas?
Thanks in advance.


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Ron.
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   Posted 6/26/2016 2:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Your use of 6-lets in the right hand is confusing. I'd stick with triplets. You can have an 1/8th note triplet containing 1/16th notes.


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Post Edited (Ron.) : 6/26/2016 2:42:53 PM (GMT-5)


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Derrek
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   Posted 6/26/2016 4:33 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why do you think the manuscript is not correct?


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castellanos
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   Posted 6/26/2016 4:58 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Derrek said...
Why do you think the manuscript is not correct?

Well, there are two ways to play this:
1 - As broken octaves, the right hand should begin with a triplet 8th note in order to have the offbeats (as I wrote in my solution).
2 - If you respect the beginning as it is, then it will be no broken octaves, in which case the last 16th. octave (E) in the right hand make no sense.
In both cases, the right hand is wrong.


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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 6/26/2016 5:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would not use tuplets at all for that passage.
I'd write the right hand starting with a 16th note rest, then a single beam to the end, and the last right hand octave as a 16th note.
I would rebeam the left hand to make it all one beam.
I don't believe the intent was to have two eighth notes as the first set of octaves. I think it is meant to be a single upward flurry of off-set octaves.


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castellanos
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   Posted 6/26/2016 5:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...
Your use of 6-lets in the right hand is confusing. I'd stick with triplets. You can have an 1/8th note triplet containing 1/16th notes.

Yes. I like you suggestion better. I'll keep the triplets instead of the sextuplets.
Thanks.


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castellanos
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   Posted 6/26/2016 5:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel R. E. said...
I would not use tuplets at all for that passage.
I'd write the right hand starting with a 16th note rest, then a single beam to the end, and the last right hand octave as a 16th note.
I would rebeam the left hand to make it all one beam.
I don't believe the intent was to have two eighth notes as the first set of octaves. I think it is meant to be a single upward flurry of off-set octaves.

Yes, that crossed my mind too, but I have to try to get closer to the original notation, as much as I can.


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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 6/26/2016 5:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
castellanos said...
Michel R. E. said...
I would not use tuplets at all for that passage.
I'd write the right hand starting with a 16th note rest, then a single beam to the end, and the last right hand octave as a 16th note.
I would rebeam the left hand to make it all one beam.
I don't believe the intent was to have two eighth notes as the first set of octaves. I think it is meant to be a single upward flurry of off-set octaves.

Yes, that crossed my mind too, but I have to try to get closer to the original notation, as much as I can.


the reason I suggested this is that the right hand contains only one single beam, while the left hand has broken beams.
this makes me suspect that the composer may have been either ambivalent or confused about the exact notation he intended.


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castellanos
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   Posted 6/26/2016 6:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michel R. E. said...
the reason I suggested this is that the right hand contains only one single beam, while the left hand has broken beams.
this makes me suspect that the composer may have been either ambivalent or confused about the exact notation he intended.

Yeah. You have a point.
I could also try that one and see what the pianists think about it. smilewinkgrin


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Vaughan
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   Posted 6/26/2016 6:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the intent was indeed offset or alternating octaves and that the first 16th tag in the RH is a mistake. I actually notated this measure in 12/8 to avoid using triplets but this isn't strictly necessary. I'd avoid splitting the octaves between the staves.


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castellanos
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   Posted 6/26/2016 6:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Vaughan said...
I think the intent was indeed offset or alternating octaves and that the first 16th tag in the RH is a mistake. I actually notated this measure in 12/8 to avoid using triplets but this isn't strictly necessary. I'd avoid splitting the octaves between the staves.

Touché!! That's a good one!
How did you write the right hand? It's a 12-let, right? I mean in 4/4 bar.


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Post Edited (castellanos) : 6/26/2016 7:01:17 PM (GMT-5)

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Ron.
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   Posted 6/26/2016 7:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
castellanos said...
Vaughan said...
I think the intent was indeed offset or alternating octaves and that the first 16th tag in the RH is a mistake. I actually notated this measure in 12/8 to avoid using triplets but this isn't strictly necessary. I'd avoid splitting the octaves between the staves.

Touché!! That's a good one!
How did you write the right hand? It's a 12-let, right? I mean in 4/4 bar.


Vaughan said he notated in in 12/8--why disagree with him and suggest he used a "12-let?" There's no reason you can't have a measure in 12/8 and display it as 4/4.


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castellanos
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   Posted 6/26/2016 8:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...
Vaughan said he notated in in 12/8--why disagree with him and suggest he used a "12-let?" There's no reason you can't have a measure in 12/8 and display it as 4/4.

Don't get me wrong, I did't disagree with Vaughan, on the contrary. He wrote it in 12/8, so the right hand are just 8th notes. I just wanted to ask how to write the right hand in a 4/4 bar (cos the original is in 4/4), which I think it is with 12-let, right?
May be I didn't ask correctly. Anyway, I think the problem with that bar is solved. Thanks Vaughan!!

Now I'm having a decision problem exactly in the next bar:


As you see here in the second bar, last beat, there is an obvious mistake in the left hand (the double dotted 8th note doesn't fit in), so the logical solution should be this one:


But may be, even though is not completely correct, this example looks better for playing?:


What do you guys think?


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Post Edited (castellanos) : 6/26/2016 8:35:25 PM (GMT-5)

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Ere
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   Posted 6/27/2016 12:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the last example does not look any better for playing. Furthermore, it distorts the composer's idea by introducing a gap in the left hand line.


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Ron.
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   Posted 6/27/2016 12:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There seems to be a communication gap. Vaughan never needed to write a 12-let. He just use the "display as" option in the time signature tool.


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castellanos
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   Posted 6/28/2016 9:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...
There seems to be a communication gap. Vaughan never needed to write a 12-let. He just use the "display as" option in the time signature tool.

Yeap. Thanks Ron for the explanation.


Ere said...
I think the last example does not look any better for playing. Furthermore, it distorts the composer's idea by introducing a gap in the left hand line.

Ok. Thanks for your comment.
I think I will stick with the first example.


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RVS Lee
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   Posted 6/28/2016 10:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Late to the conversation but some additional solutions below;
The first measure breaks all sorts of 'rules' but may be the clearest expression of Castro's intentions.
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castellanos
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   Posted 6/28/2016 5:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RVS Lee said...
Late to the conversation but some additional solutions below;
The first measure breaks all sorts of 'rules' but may be the clearest expression of Castro's intentions.

Nice one. Thanks.
I like how you solved the second bar, last beat. 16th tied to a dotted 32nd looks better.


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Post Edited (castellanos) : 6/28/2016 5:47:38 PM (GMT-5)

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dfwmd
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   Posted 7/2/2016 2:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You could also notate the final beat of the left hand (in the second measure) as a sixteenth note quintuplet and hide the "5" to get it to look exactly like the manuscript.


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