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Darwood
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   Posted 7/22/2016 6:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I learned recently in this forum and from another source outside this forum that switching to ASIO drivers could help me to solve a problem I've never been able to solve in the three or more versions of Finale PrintMusic I have used over the years, namely syncing the audio so that I can both send notes from my keyboard to a score and also play a score through my keyboard or even just through the onboard soundcard without glitches and delays.

I'm currently on a Dell Inspiron 15z on which was originally outfitted with Windows 8. I recently upgraded to Windows 10. But I have used Finale on at least two other machines and have never been able to get it to sync to my MIDI interface.

Today, I tried two different times to get this driver. Both times, I was routed to driverscape.com, which seems to be some sort of driver manager. It tells me what drivers are installed on my machine and which ones are out of date. But, even when I specifically requested ASIO, it downloaded this unrelated app: DriverToolkitInstaller.exe - No ASIO driver was downloaded.

I'm baffled as to why I cannot find a direct download. I'm having the same problem with getting a driver update for my MIDI USB interface (Edirol UM-1x).

Can anyone in this forum provide me with a link for either driver? Thanks in advance.
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Darwood
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   Posted 7/22/2016 6:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oops! I neglected to mention that I'm using PrintMusic 2010.
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Credo
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   Posted 7/22/2016 8:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
First try the maker of your sound card/device/chip-set.

Not all of them have true ASIO drivers available. Chipsets built into the motherboard usually don't have them available unless you've got a really high end motherboard. Typically, only mid-tier to high end cards targeted specifically at multi-media production come with ASIO support.

It is possible to use an ASIO bridge such as ASIO4ALL. This gives you the ability to aggregate several devices into a single ASIO front end. The software sees an ASIO driver, and the 'bridge' connects with your hardware vis their native WDM drivers.

You can find it here: asio4all.com/

Post Edited (Credo) : 7/23/2016 5:35:54 PM (GMT-5)

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Darwood
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   Posted 7/23/2016 12:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Credo. This is a laptop, so I suppose it's likely the soundcard is built into the motherboard, but I don't know how to see it. I looked under 'Sound, video and game controllers' in the Device Manager to see if I could find it. Could it be one of these?

IDT High Definition Audio CODEC
Intel(R) Display Audio

Or are those just software? (JAMBOX and my Bluetooth headset also appear on the list, so I suspect they're just software.)

Thanks for the link to the bridge. I downloaded it, but it doesn't come with any instructions I can see. Unless they're built into the .exe file and display after you've run it. I've never switched drivers, and I don't know how straightforward a process it is. Will it see it once I download and run it? Or do I somehow need to point Finale and/or Windows to it in the registry or inside Finale somewhere?

Another question: I'd gladly upgrade to the latest PrintMusic if it would make this problem go away. I've already tried that 3-4 times (PrintMusic 2006, 2008, 2010) and it hasn't worked yet. But I keep thinking that maybe Finale will figure out a way to get this working seamlessly at some point. If so and it already is, I'd gladly shell out the money for an upgrade. But I don't want to waste any more money on an upgrade if it's just going to leave me in the same position I'm in now.

Post Edited (Darwood) : 7/23/2016 1:02:50 PM (GMT-5)

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Zuill
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   Posted 7/23/2016 2:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I avoid ASIO as it causes more problems than it is worth.

If you need any available drivers for your motherboard, they need to be specific for your motherboard. Those should only be downloaded from the website of the manufacturer of the motherboard. If that is the same as the manufacturer of the laptop, then those should be on their website.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
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Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Fritz Meissner
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   Posted 7/23/2016 3:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The UM-1X is apparently not officially supported by Roland on Windows 10. However it seems that there is a way to make the Windows 8 driver work with Windows 10 : Make the Edirol or Roland UM-1 and UM-1X work on Windows 10. Note that I don't have a UM-1X, and I haven't tried the method given, but it looks reasonable.

Concerning ASIO drivers, can you give a more detailed explanation of what the problem is that you are trying to solve ? I think you may be looking in the wrong place for the solution, as the normal windows sound drivers shouldn't introduce "glitches and delays".

PS: I see I haven't updated my signature in a while. It should read PrintMusic 2014 on Windows 10.


PrintMusic 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2010 Windows 7 Home Premium, Pentium i5 750 quad core + 4 GB; Cakewalk UA-101
2nd Tenor Cape Town Male Voice Choir.
Use the Finale Knowledgebase first ! :-)

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Credo
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   Posted 7/23/2016 5:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It sounds to me like in your case there is a small chance ASIO4ALL might make your product usable.
If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but there is no harm in trying. Just uninstall it if it doesn't help...

If ASIO4ALL doesn't fix it right away with default settings on installation, then I'd suggest going to the support page for your particular laptop and getting any drivers there. Try to reinstall whatever audio related drivers you can find there.

ADIO4ALL doesn't actually 'switch drivers'. It just provides a front end bridge so your Application 'thinks' it is using ASIO drivers and treats it as such. In this case, ASIO4ALL is actually using whatever native WDM drivers you have installed for your card. It sets up some buffers, at a size of your choosing, so your application can manage streams to multiple independent WDM drivers from the same front-end.

Just as an example: Sometimes I use the ASIO4ALL front end if I want to use a USB mic along with one of my Audio cards in something like Cubase, or if I want to bridge all the inputs from my Delta 1010 along with my Tascam 1200 so Cubase can see and run them all 'together' at the same time. Cubase happens to be an application that 'only' works with an ASIO front end. It comes with a small ASIO to WDM driver for people that don't have an ASIO sound device, but it's not as open and flexible as ASIO4ALL.

In Finale I've never really needed it, since it will allow you to choose your audio output and microphone choice independently.

If you wish to try ASIO4ALL it's simple to install and just as easy to remove if it does not help your situation.

In my experience it's a solid bit of code that works really well, but it might require some time and effort to 'tweak it out' for your given hardware for maximum performance without any glitches (if low latency is a goal). As you add to the workload of an application (I.E. piling on more VST plugins), you can go into ASIO and gradually increase the buffers if 'glitches' are introduced...that adds some to the latency, but it gives the processor some extra cycles to get things done.

Just run the installer. It will install the bridge and place a PDF file on your desktop for documentation. The installer also has some optional things you can install if you want certain rewire clients to show up as an ASIO device.

Next, you'd simply choose ASIO4ALL as your audio device in Finale and you'll notice it loading a little user interface in your system tray. You can use that system tray to manipulate the bridge settings. By default it only lets you choose one audio device, but you can click a wrench icon to aggregate devices and manually tweak various buffers and wdm options.

If ASIO4ALL doesn't help, or it makes things worse, you can leave it there in case you need it in the future and simply choose a different device in Finale, OR, you can uninstall it VIA the Windows control panel, "Programs and Features". It also comes with an uninstaller.exe file in its start bar menu, and in the actual installation location (You get to control that when you install it).

While I do not usually use ASIO4ALL with Finale since I've no need to aggregate multiple devices in Finale, I have tested it and the bridge itself works fine with my motherboard's VIA chip set.

I do use ASIO drivers 99.9% of the time in Finale as my primary audio cards both have 'native' ASIO drivers and they both work great with Finale.

Post Edited (Credo) : 7/23/2016 11:09:12 PM (GMT-5)

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Darwood
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   Posted 7/23/2016 7:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
/Concerning ASIO drivers, can you give a more detailed explanation of what the problem is that you are trying to solve ? I think you
/may be looking in the wrong place for the solution, as the normal windows sound drivers shouldn't introduce "glitches and delays".

Thanks for your response, Fritz Meissner. Here's the issue in two paragraphs:

If I try to use my keyboard to input notes while a metronome clicks beats, it is not sync'ed, so the timing is off.

If I try to play back something using the MIDI player built into Finale, the sound won't actually start playing until 2-3 measures -- sometimes much longer - after I start it while the metronome meanwhile keeps beating away measure by measure. Theoretically, it should be possible to use Finale as a metronome for pieces with shifting time signatures. But the glitches and lags make this pretty much impossible.

It has been that way through 3-4 different versions of PrintMusic on the 2-3 different machines I've used since I first purchased the product back in 2006 or so.
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Darwood
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   Posted 7/23/2016 7:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks again, Credo. I'll give it a shot and let you know what happens.
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Credo
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   Posted 7/23/2016 9:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If live MIDI input and metronome sync is the problem here are a couple of things to try.

1. See if you can use smaller buffers in your Audio driver without getting glitches. If you've a pretty modern laptop it's quite possible you can get by with much smaller audio buffers than the defaults. Most laptops out there these days should be able to get you down to around 40ms latency or better.

You can tweak the buffer sizes in most versions of Finale that I have ever seen in the "Audio Settings", and if you're using the ASIO bridge you can tweak them even further in the ASIO4ALL control panel (pops up in the system tray when in ASIO4ALL is in use).

Try a buffer size of around 512k to start with. If it plays back a decent sized score without any 'gitches' then you might can go even smaller. If it 'glitches' during playback, then increase the buffer size in steps of about 32kb and try again...

The delay between playing something on your keyboard and hearing the sound is caused by 'latency' of the audio stream, and smaller buffers mean less latency.

2. Don't use the internal metronome of Finale. Instead, point it to a track in ARIA or SmartSynth that has a drum kit loaded....choose whatever sounds you like...I.E. a couple of wood blocks. By doing this, your metronome sounds are more likely to have similar or exact latency as your VST plugins. I forget exactly where the option to change Finale's metronome is...but it should be there somewhere ;)

If neither of these solutions work:
Get a nice usb sound interface that is designed to have low latency performance, with a nice flat frequency response. Your options on this front are numerious depending on how many inputs/outputs you want, and if you require preamps and phantom power (for XLR mics).

Post Edited (Credo) : 7/24/2016 10:24:37 AM (GMT-5)

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Daz
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   Posted 7/23/2016 10:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Credo said...
Get a nice usb sound interface that is designed to have low latency performance, with a nice flat frequency response.


That.

Some internal audio interface chipsets have reasonable output performance for gaming and multimedia, but horrible support for production and input.

Cheers...


Daz. :o)

------------------------
Finale 2006-2011 - Win7 64 bit

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Darwood
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   Posted 7/24/2016 8:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks. The USB sound interface sounds like it might be the simplest option. Can anyone by chance recommend one? I found a bunch listed here which range from about $30 to $150 and up:

https://www.amazon.com/Computer-Recording-Audio-Interfaces/b?ie=UTF8&node=11973691

And, by the way, this includes a built-in MIDI in and out, right? ie. it replaces the UM-1x altogether? Is that right?
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Daz
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   Posted 7/24/2016 9:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi

when you're looking at the options available, take care to ensure that it includes midi input.
For example, on the page that you're looking at only two of the products available include MIDI input
(the PreSonus AudioBox USB 2x2 and the Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6 - The Midiplus Tbox does *not* count)

If you look at the Scarlett range, you'll need to start with the 2i4. They do have a good reputation and are (according to them) the best in the industry.
The NI offering looks nice, and includes some good software, at around a similar price to the 2i4 it's competitive.
I do not know anything much about the PreSonus box, but the price is attractive.
Edirol (Roland) are said to make good boxes as well (I've not looked, but that was a recommendation made in an earlier thread regarding audio interfaces here)

Looking for good reviews can be tricky. Recent reviews by industry mags such as MusicRadar et al all give basic overviews, but little in the way of specs
I've manage to find one (old - more than a year old) review which does give some at-a-glance specs here
That may be a good starting point to get an idea of which way to head.
All I can suggest is to pick two or three products which look interesting and fit in with whatever budget you have, then research them as much as possible.

The USB interface would replace your UM-1x, provided you get one with MIDI input capabilities

Cheers...


Daz. :o)

------------------------
Finale 2006-2011 - Win7 64 bit

Post Edited (Daz) : 7/24/2016 10:56:34 PM (GMT-5)

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