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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
Polymathist



Click to send Ralph L. Bowers Jr. email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Ralph L. Bowers Jr.AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 883
 
   Posted 8/20/2016 10:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is a copy of an email I sent to the makers of SmartScore.

With it's (SmartScore lite) removal and even the removal of tiff importation into v25 Finale...... even if you have the pro version of SmartScore we will be left with very little recourse except to purchase PhotoScore Ultimate which has music xml export.

Email sent

"To [email protected] [email protected] Today at 8:29 AM
Since Finale v25 has taken out SmartScore lite and even the ability to import a tiff file it sure would be nice of you guys to incorporate a pdf to music xml export function in a new application. Otherwise what are we left with.......? PhotoScore Ultimate!!!
When I'm asked what to use I'll have to recommend it.

Sorry guys, but you better get on the stick with this update/upgrade.

Update:

Reply from them: For over 15 years, MakeMusic has partnered with Musitek to license a lite version of SmartScore within their Finale product. Last year we negotiated a new agreement that would embed our advanced SmartScore X2 recognition engine into Finale capable of processing PDF files. Unfortunately, a pre-release video of this new capability reached influential people in the music publishing business. They were astonished at the ease and accuracy of the paper-to-Finale transfer process (using a cell phone no less)… So much so that they began to worry about infringement. Accordingly, they pressured MakeMusic not to include the PDF-to-Finale module in Finale v25. Here is an online article if you wish to read more…
www.sibeliusblog.com/opinion/makemusic-pulls-pdf-importing-and-scanning-from-finale/

Our relationship with the folks at MakeMusic is still solid and we will continue to co-marketing one another’s products. Musitek will continue to offer a 1/2 price discount to owners of Finale, including Finale v.25. Moving forward, Musitek is continuing to develop the same “Music-to-XML” technology and will soon be releasing a new desktop app that will process PDF, scanned .TIF and mobile camera images and output the results to MusicXML files. This Music-to-XML gadget will be a low-cost app available soon on the Apple and Windows app stores.


Please visit www.musitek.com in October where you will be able to find out more about this fabulous new gadget.

Ralph L. Bowers Jr."


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.1, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)update finally installed]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

Post Edited (Ralph L. Bowers Jr.) : 8/20/2016 2:24:00 PM (GMT-5)

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CraigP
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   Posted 8/20/2016 5:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I read Musitek's words, but they make no sense. If I interpret that correctly what they are saying is that the publishers intimidated MakeMusic, but they left Musitek alone? That makes very little sense, considering that it is Musitek's software that is the threat here. Finale is just an innocent bystander.

But I guess the copyright wars don't have to make sense.
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ttw
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   Posted 8/20/2016 6:00 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The question is more, "Which company is more easily influenced?" rather than, "Which company is more involved?" I don't know the answer. Personally, I'd rather go after the actual violators rather than the companies who provide technology. Ginsu ought not be held liable for every drunken fight in a kitchen....


Finale 2014.5
GWI, GPO4, GPO5, JABB 3, Steinway Basic, COMB2

Windows 10 Pro HP Envy Desktop
Windows 10 Home HP Portable

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Charles Lawrence
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   Posted 8/20/2016 6:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Ralph,

Correct me if I am wrong, but SmartScore X2 Pro can export to MuscicXML, which can then be read into Finale.  It can also import PDF.  What is the issue?


"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!"

Windows 10 Professional (x64) (build 10586)
 
3.50 gigahertz Intel Core i7-5930K, Multi-core (6 total), Hyper-threaded (12 total)
32638 Megabytes Usable Installed Memory, 17514.37 Gigabytes Usable Hard Drive Capacity
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980 - 4GB [Display adapter]
ASUS Rampage V Extreme motherboard, Realtek HD Audio

Finale 2014.5.6359
Garritan GPO4.02


Cakewalk SONAR X3 - (X3e build 244) - x64, Sound Forge Audio Studio 10.0, Audacity 2.1.0
Sharpeye 2.68, PhotoScore Ultimate 7.0.2, SmartScore X2 Pro 10.5.8

"There is a world of difference between a person who has a big problem and a person who makes a problem big." – John Maxwell

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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
Polymathist



Click to send Ralph L. Bowers Jr. email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Ralph L. Bowers Jr.AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 883
 
   Posted 8/20/2016 7:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Charles,

Yes, yes it can. But who really wants to pay the price for just simple needs for most users, and coming from personal experience with both SmartScore Pro X and Pro X2, and PhotoScore Ultimate 6, 7, and 8 (7 is best in my opinion) has them beat hands down with better reads and convenience of UI format to save as in export. And, I find it much easier to edit in the application first then SmartScore.
We will see in October what kind of development they have for us and its price.

An online service that could convert (with reliability, and maybe even online editing) pdf's (copyrights could be well protected than........maybe one or all of those publishers would step up with this service) since they drove its demise with Finale v25.


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5 TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.4.1, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, [Notion 5, (bought but not installed)update finally installed]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

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KitFernuel
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Total Posts : 4
 
   Posted 12/21/2016 9:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Polymath" suggests that SmartScore X2 does not export MusicXML files when in fact they are fully-compatible and work beautifully with Finale v25.
For those who don't need or want post-recognition editing in SmartScore, Musitek is currently releasing "Music-to-XML" desktop app for Mac and Windows.
See http://www.musitek.com/m2xml.html
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Mike Rosen
himself



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Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/22/2016 12:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KitFernuel said...
"Polymath" suggests that SmartScore X2 does not export MusicXML files when in fact they are fully-compatible and work beautifully with Finale v25.
For those who don't need or want post-recognition editing in SmartScore, Musitek is currently releasing "Music-to-XML" desktop app for Mac and Windows.
See http://www.musitek.com/m2xml.html


And I suspect that people will be just as disappointed as they were with the bundled version. You WILL need that post-recognition editing, and it's much easier to correct those inevitable mistakes in SmartScore, than in Finale.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 12/22/2016 5:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Most folks know my thoughts on music scanning for Finale; I have always been very disappointed with the results.

Among other programs, I bought PDFtoMusic Pro from Myriad, which is supposed to be extra-accurate when interpreting vector-based PDF files create by music applications.

Well, it kinda works, some of the time, on very simple music - the kind you could play directly into Finale in a couple of minutes per page - but it falls over so many things in even moderately complicated music. And by "moderately" complicated, I mean nothing more than (for example) a couple of pages from a typical Broadway show vocal score.

As for SmartScore, I've tried their demos at various times, with very mixed results. For a laugh, I also downloaded their "NoteReader" app for my iPhone/iPad. It can just about handle "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" or similar, but even something as simple as the first page of "Where Is Love" from "Oliver!" sends it into a flurry of confusion, interspersed with moments of hope. Will their new phone app work any better, I wonder?

In my experience, music scanning technology is at best, a toy. I am amazed the publishers have suddenly gotten so sniffy about it - unless Musitek HAS finally cracked the nut, that is.

Brian


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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 12/22/2016 6:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ha! Even better?! ...

... so I decided to give SmartScore X2 a chance, and downloaded and installed the demo. Then I tried to run it, and got this:



Nice friendly stuff, NOT.

I'll stick to actually entering my music, I think.

Brian



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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 12/22/2016 6:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Regarding my previous post, I just got the demo working by using RegEdit to delete the "Musitek" key. I am now listening to some lamentable attempts at scanning and playing some VERY clean scores. By "VERY", I mean perfectly rendered output at 300dpi, direct from a vector PDF, using Photoshop.

Brian


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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/22/2016 8:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In my present work flow, my first line of attack in editing or arranging is to scan the original if possible using SmartScore X Pro (not even the latest version). I wouldn't consider other means of input unless scanning proved ineffective, which is rare. I get excellent results in music that suits scanning at its present stage of development: single instrumental parts and piano scores that are not ultra-complex. Anything with extensive cross-staff writing doesn't work well. I am able to recognize PDFs of whole Chopin Etudes in seconds, and clean 'em up in a few minutes. For me, that is preferable to keyboard input.


Edit in SmartScore and then import into Finale, as Mike Rosen says. The basic SmartScore editing tools are fairly intuitive and anything that is cumbersome in SmartScore can be left until after the export to Finale.


I got the same message a while ago, Ebony Ivory, because I had completed a trial previously but forgotten. They only give you one trial.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

Post Edited (John Ruggero) : 12/22/2016 7:11:34 AM (GMT-6)

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 12/22/2016 8:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
I got the same message a while ago, Ebony Ivory, because I had completed a trial previously but forgotten. They only give you one trial.

Hi John,

I'd initially forgotten that I tried X2 a few months back. But all I had to do to re-enable the trial, is search the Windows registry for "Musitek", and then delete the key. On re-running the demo, the key was created afresh, and the software worked within its aforementioned limitations.

Brian


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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/22/2016 2:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Ebony Ivory, it probably happens regularly. At least that is how it seems when I called them up. They suggested changing my computer's date to circumvent it, but that was a no go for me. I am on a Mac, so I am not sure how to apply your solution, which sounds like a great one.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Ebony IvoryAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Dec 2005
Total Posts : 4594
 
   Posted 12/22/2016 4:22 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Good point John - I don't know the equivalent Mac trick, though it can only be a preference file stashed somewhere.

Slightly off topic, I don't have the Mac version of Finale, though I do run Finale 2005b on my MacBook Pro - it works just great under Fusion, with a Windows 7 virtual machine. Back on topic, I've not tried any music scanning software on the Mac.

Brian


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John Ruggero
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   Posted 12/22/2016 6:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't know if there is a difference, Ebony Ivory, but, as I mentioned, it works well enough for my needs on a Mac. Of course, I am only interested in pitches and rhythms and delete all expressions, articulations, and smart shapes in the Finale file after importing from SmartScore. I guess one needs to be realistic about optical recognition for music, and be happy with what it can do, rather than disappointed in what it can't.


Mac mini (OS 10.8.5) with dual monitors, Finale 2014.5 (Finale 2011 and 2014d as backups) with GPO 4
Kurzweil Mark 5 with M-Audio Midisport 2 x 2, Adobe InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins
www.cantilenapress.com

The better the composer, the better the notation.

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Mike Rosen
himself



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Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/22/2016 8:01 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Ruggero said...
I guess one needs to be realistic about optical recognition for music, and be happy with what it can do, rather than disappointed in what it can't.


Well spoken, John!



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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