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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 8:11 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have always created my scores (mostly small ensembles) directly in Page View, editing spacing and layout per page, as I progress through the score. However, I'm suddenly wondering whether it would make much more sense to do the entire score in Scroll View first, and deal with all Page and system formatting afterwards. This seems like a very basic consideration, and I'm embarrassed to admit that it's only occurring to me now!

Is this a standard approach, for complex scores?

I'd really welcome your feedback!

Thanks, in advance!
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Gareth Green
Player of fine trumpets



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   Posted 8/27/2016 8:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Different people work in different ways, for different reasons. I've always worked in scroll view, not venturing into page view until I'm almost ready to print. But I'm sure others who are more expert than me would choose to work in page view, depending on the nature of the project.


Gareth J. Green

Fin2014c
Windows 7

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Ron.
Composer



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   Posted 8/27/2016 8:31 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It is my standard approach for all scores--big and small. I have enough to think about while creating the music than to worry about how it will look on the page. That is the last thing on my mind--and the last thing I do. Besides, do you really want to stop everything to reformat your entire document because you've decided to insert or delete a couple of measures?


Finale 25

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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 9:14 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thank-you, Gareth and Ron, for taking the time to share your experience - I appreciate it!
Anyone else care to respond?

For whatever it's worth: my usual way of composing is 1) via music ms + pencil + piano; 2) onto my DAW (where the score is too complex to play / too difficult for me to clearly hear, mentally); 3) once the composition is completed (and already notated as pencil roughs), onto Finale for score and parts. For current piece, there are a few undecided areas -- eg, percussion, for which I'll be consulting an ace jazz drummer -- hence the thought of leaving all page and system formatting till the very end. I'm assuming that, if editing in Scroll View, I should initially include ALL possible staves/parts (even one which I know will only, eventually, be 'visible' for a handful of bars (out of hundreds of bars), and then deal with optimization later -- is that a correct assumption?

As well, would it be possible to save the completed Scroll View version with two different names, and use one for Page and System formatting for the Score, and the other for Page formatting for the Parts?
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Ron.
Composer



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   Posted 8/27/2016 10:24 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It is no problem to add staffs later---or to select to view only certain staffs in scroll view. There is absolutely no reason you can't save the same file with 50 different names if that is what you want.

For the record, it doesn't matter if you save in scroll view or page view. What is displayed when you open the file after closing it depends on whatever default you have set for viewing documents. Switching between scroll and page view is only a matter of clicking an icon. I think you are over-complicating things.


Finale 25

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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 10:38 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron said...
It is no problem to add staffs later---or to select to view only certain staffs in scroll view.

Thanks, Ron.

Ron said...
it doesn't matter if you save in scroll view or page view. What is displayed when you open the file after closing it depends on whatever default you have set for viewing documents. Switching between scroll and page view is only a matter of clicking an icon.

Thanks, I realized that. I'm thinking more of the problem of parts being automatically linked to the score: if I want to leave all formatting questions till after entering everything via Scroll View, I'm thinking that I can then proceed from there with two completely separate files: one that I will format strictly for parts, and the other strictly for the score. (If my questions seem overly complicated, it's probably because I've never worked from a complete Scroll View, and I'm trying to anticipate potential problems.)
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**Rimas G.
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   Posted 8/27/2016 10:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...
I have enough to think about while creating the music than to worry about how it will look on the page.


Ron is absolutely right.
Create your music in Scroll view. When you finish creation and came back to the page, Finale automaticaly make layout in a Page view. If you don 't like picture, you can always edit it. Use the Page Layout Tool and make your own settings. It's my experience and always I get best layout resuts. Any way when you work and finished creation in Page view, you always must make finaly "clean" layout. It's not ergonomic :)


**Rimas G.


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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 11:01 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Rimas!
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Eisengrim
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   Posted 8/27/2016 4:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I used to work in Page View, until the day I realised it was much easier to place marks like crescendi or slurs (to say nothing of trills!) that had to cross a page break in Scroll View, because Finale would take care of the break on its own, more or less correctly. So yes, another vote for Scroll View here, even for transcribing from paper.


Finale 2014d
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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 5:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Eisengrim!

In page view, I often will manually adjust the width of a measure (rather than handing the task over to Finale algorithms), where necessary. I notice that when doing this in Scroll View, any subsequent note/rest entry seems to undo such manual measure width changes. Is there a dedicated technique for making such changes 'stay' until such time as one needs to manually change them again?
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Ron.
Composer



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   Posted 8/27/2016 5:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There is absolutely no need to adjust measure width in scroll view. This is something that should be reserved until final editing. If a measure appears to be crowded in scroll view, then apply note spacing.


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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 5:44 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron said...
There is absolutely no need to adjust measure width in scroll view.

You could have fooled me! ; - ) Among other situations, inserting a clef change, followed by a 'chord arpeggiation' sign, required manual note shifts (in all layers, both clefs, via Speedy Entry) that then demanded a wider measure width.

Ron said...
If a measure appears to be crowded in scroll view, then apply note spacing.

Will that note spacing automatically be carried over to Page View, and (possibly) cause problems later on, when it's time to adjust things there?
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Ron.
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   Posted 8/27/2016 7:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Of course spacing in scroll view carries over to page view and does not cause any problems later. You'll find, instead, that you will have to do less tinkering in page view when formatting your document. And, yes, the spacing utility takes care of inserted clefs, etc. It is counterproductive to adjust measure widths in scroll view.

Please see attached image.

You know, you could easily try all this for yourself. Switching between page and scroll view is a single mouse click.


Finale 25

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Flint
silly bear



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   Posted 8/27/2016 7:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ms'n'pencil said...
Ron said...
There is absolutely no need to adjust measure width in scroll view.

You could have fooled me! ; - ) Among other situations, inserting a clef change, followed by a 'chord arpeggiation' sign, required manual note shifts (in all layers, both clefs, via Speedy Entry) that then demanded a wider measure width.

Ron said...
If a measure appears to be crowded in scroll view, then apply note spacing.

Will that note spacing automatically be carried over to Page View, and (possibly) cause problems later on, when it's time to adjust things there?


It sounds like you have automatic spacing turned off. Also, you can have articulations included in the spacing algorithm. Turn it on, and when you leave a measure, it'll respace it to fit all the elements appropriately.

There's no need to do any note adjustments until final page layout. I don't even look at a score in Page View until every note and element has been entered. It's literally the last thing I do, except for parts.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2014d using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 4 Full, Garritan Jazz & Big Band 3, Garritan Concert and Marching Band 2, Windows 10, 12GB RAM, frequently RTFM.

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read
 

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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 7:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Flint.

If, by 'automatic spacing', you mean >document options>music spacing, it looks like it has been on -- tho' I see that articulations had not been included (I've since included them). I'll see if that helps, when similar situations arise.

I also noticed that a chord arpeggiation symbol I used in Scroll View (that straddles both clefs in a keyboard chord) is somehow significantly longer (too long!) when viewed in Page View . . . not sure what governs that. .

Thanks again.
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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 8/27/2016 8:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Edit>Preferences>Edit>Automatic Music Spacing.


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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 10:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Aha! Thank-you, Motet!
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ms'n'pencil
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   Posted 8/27/2016 10:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron said...
And, yes, the spacing utility takes care of inserted clefs, etc. It is counterproductive to adjust measure widths in scroll view.

Please see attached image.


Thanks, Ron! I'll try to solve these problems (if they continue to arise) via your suggestion.
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HaraldS
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   Posted 8/28/2016 4:15 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When entering the musical content, I prefer scroll view: its linear timeline reflects better how the audience would experience the music. Same for me: as a composer/arranger, the musical idea itself is entirely linear. Additionally, I have Finale display the score in concert pitch.

When the work is entered, I switch to page view and transposed view. Then I do everything which has to do with the visual appearance of the music.

Needless to say, some mistakes and errors only jump to the eye in this second stage. Sometimes, this needs going back to scroll view. Please consider using the hotkey CTRL-E for fast switching between the views. I can recommend the above working order.

Harald


Finale 3.0-2014.5, german edition, Windows 7
lots of hardware synths/keys, Cubase 7 / trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 8/28/2016 4:25 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I tend to use Page View exclusively: though I don't worry about the layout till a much later stage. I tend to work from manuscripts which I am creating decent scores of. First, I enter notes, then lyrics and expressions, then bass figures and other details. I'll certainly mark new sections by checking "Begin new system" in Measure Attributes, and put in double bars and final bars as I go along.

Only once the music is all in do I start worrying about the layout: that's when I start spacing the measures per system to my liking; hiding staves, and spacing systems and staves. I have a big monitor, so page turns aren't a big deal.


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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 8/28/2016 1:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Scroll Viewer here. With Scroll View you don't have to deal with the display jumping to a new page or dragging slurs or hairpins over a system or page boundary.


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