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Ron.
Composer



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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 6:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The one drawback to this forum is that there is no "like" button, because I would definitely use for Zuill's last comment. :)


Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Mike Rosen
himself



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Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 7:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
I guess MakeMusic has succeeded in their plan (to drive users away). Remember when Coca-Cola changed their formula, then had to bring Classic Coke back? (Maybe I'm dating myself.) Sometimes things just don't go as planned in the business world. I am guessing they were actually hoping to lose some of us "pot-stirrers". How will they know about the things needing fixing?

Zuill


If you date yourself, who picks up the check?

But nothing needs fixing. Just ask "customer success."



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Derrek
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Total Posts : 2347
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 1:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When I Google Zendesk, I see a Customer Relations Management software company. My guess is that MM bought the product to track their support calls and that Zendesk then sold them on integrating the whole operation with their cool nifty forum add-on. Perhaps this fits in with MM's SmartMusic clientele, but it is really designed for the company's convenience at the (considerable) expense of the user community.

If MM is committed to Zendesk, for heaven's sake make the user interface more user friendly. I shouldn't have to open a dozen messages to discover which I've seen (several times) before. (The most recent post pulldown has to be pulled down every time I return to the TOC, meaning multiple clicks and drags just to find messages with updated comments.) And spamming my e-mail with update notifications is an intrusion: I don't break off dealing with e-mail to chase some MM squirrel through the Zendesk maze. What kind of idiot design the Zendesk user interface? Clearly no one who ever expected to use it frequently form teh user's side.


Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 1:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the new forums were envisioned from the perspective of someone needing help--you post a question, then someone answers it you get email. What was not envisioned was a community of users providing the help. To accommodate them the software needs to remember which postings they've seen from visit to visit and to make it easy to see only what's new and to easily revisit a thread they've recently read and or posted in.

Then, as I just posted elsewhere, there's the question of attachments. Yes, one could post a link to something offsite, but the percentage of people who have such storage and the knowledge to do it is likely small. Plus, they're likely to delete the files once the discussion is over. I have posted hundreds of examples here over the years; I can't imagine maintaining that if they were in my own space.

A typical scenario here is someone has a mysterious problem, and the only way of getting to the bottom of it is for them to post their file. In the new forums that might go, "Huh? How do I do that? What's Dropbox? I have to sign up for that? Am I going to get spammed? OK, I created a Dropbox account, now what? OK, I uploaded it there, now what? OK, here's the link--oh, it doesn't work? Let me try again." I just don't see it working.

The forum lets you upload images. It shouldn't be hard to extend that to other attachments. But the navigation issues Derrek mentions are an equally big problem, more than just changing the size of the borders, as someone above promised.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/11/2016 1:17:19 PM (GMT-6)

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 4:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Seriously, I believe they are trying to run the whole thing into the ground. The serious users will be migrating to other forums, and what's left? The blind leading the blind.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Derrek
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Total Posts : 2347
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 7:48 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I do not question the company's intentions. I just think they have made a terrible decision and chosen a product unsuitable for serving their customers.


Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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CraigP
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Total Posts : 313
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 12:26 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have a dumb question.

If Finale didn't want to keep using the old forum, which has plenty of limitations of its own, why didn't they simply choose a modern software solution that is actually designed to serve and cultivate a user community? Don't they want to cultivate a user community? There are a bunch out there:
http://www.quertime.com/article/15-best-online-forum-platforms-software-free-and-paid/

And I agree the new forum is just strange. It doesn't feel like a forum or a trouble ticket system. What is it? Why does it even exist? I am having trouble understanding what anyone would ever use that software for.

This is like picking Finale if you need a MIDI editor. Yeah, I guess you can kinda make that work. But who would want to? As a person who often depends on the help of others here, it becomes a big problem if the new forum is too tedious for those users to hang around.
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HaraldS
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Total Posts : 310
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 8:47 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
CraigP said...
Don't they want to cultivate a user community?


Obviously no. Finale users aren't primarily recognized by MM as musicians who could help each other in a productive environment, but (according to the department's name) are recognized as customers who could have success.

CraigP said...
Why does it even exist?


Well, good question. It doesn't have the necessary features and thus is not a step forwards. It could be so easy, the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly. Instead, MM doesn't listen to the user's needs and a working composer's reality. In politics, we call that "post-factual" politics. Ironically, the german word "postfaktisch" was elected for "Word of the year 2016" just five days ago.

Harald


Finale 3.0-2014.5, german edition, Windows 7
mostly hardware synths/keys, Cubase 7 / trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 1:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HaraldS said...
...the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly...

If it's the same version of phpBB that finaleforum.com uses, I wouldn't say flawlessly. There's apparently no way to see only what's new to you in a thread. It will show you which threads have new postings, but you then have to hunt for your place. For all the drawbacks of the dotNetBB forum software here, they got that part right.

On another note, someone reported in the Mac forum that MM phone support is going away in January. Can someone from MakeMusic confirm? I can't say that I've used it, but I worry about the situation of authorization breaking. If for some reason that happens (I have to recover my system, say), do I have to go through the Zendesk forums to straighten it out?


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/14/2016 11:58:19 AM (GMT-6)

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Ron.
Composer



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Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 2:02 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why would phone support be going away? Sometimes it's the most convenient way to get a fast fix to an urgent problem. I'm getting a very uneasy feeling about the direction MM is headed.


Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Adam W.
Forum Moderator



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Date Joined Aug 2008
Total Posts : 54
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 4:56 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
To speak to Ron's comment - We're refocusing on an improved online support experience and will be offering Finale support exclusively online beginning in the new year. The ultimate goal in making this change is to be able to offer faster turnaround times and to provide appropriate, prioritized responses based on the nature of the issue. Urgent issues like product authorization, crashing etc. are showstoppers and require immediate attention. Identifying these problems quickly via our online tools means that you get priority responses when your product isn't working like it should.

Of course, there are always going to be complex issues that can be better addressed via the phone or even a remote session. We'll be able to leverage those options as needed so that we can maintain efficiency and accuracy across the board.
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Derrek
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Total Posts : 2347
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 6:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
HaraldS said...
...the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly...

If it's the same version of phpBB that finaleforum.com uses, I wouldn't say flawlessly.

It's easy enough to see what the Dorico Forum offers without guessing or making assumptions:

/www.steinberg.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=246&sid=155ecd8f322512a784565174aa011756&etcc_rid=1RIV4Y9M-RWJUJN&etcc_mid=129170224529&etcc_med=NLR&etcc_cmp=Program&etcc_ctv=AP%20Dorico%20Announcement%202&etcc_var=129170224529&pad=Dorico&rgn=US-EU-RoW&lan=EN


Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Derrek
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Total Posts : 2347
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 7:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Adam W. said...
We're refocusing on an improved online support experience and will be offering Finale support exclusively online beginning in the new year. ....

Adam, This sounds too much like a once popular national Chicken restaurant franchise near a friends house some years ago that put a sign in their window "We're moving to serve you better."
The restaurant moved out of the neighborhood: today I couldn't even find their name in a list of restaurants.


Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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Total Posts : 29077
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 7:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Possibly they too moved to Boulder, CO.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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ttw
Registered Member

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Total Posts : 776
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 8:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The problem with online support is that I often need support (not just with Finale) when there is no line to be on.

Other sites that use Facebook are essentially useless. The Facebook site of every company that I've tried to use would never display properly on any of my computers. The only thing these companies had in common was the use of Facebook for support.

Essentially, MM is saying that (at least for me), there will be no support.


Finale 2014.5, 25
GWI, GPO4, GPO5, JABB 3, Steinway Basic, COMB2

Windows 10 Pro HP Envy Desktop
Windows 10 Home HP Portable

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Ron.
Composer



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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 8:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
They are getting rid of phone support in order to focus on improving their online response time. I tried out the new help forum when they first announced it and did not see a single MM employee respond to any requests for weeks before I gave up.


Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Michel R. E.
Registered Member



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   Posted 12/14/2016 8:59 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I got a response to an issue question, it took a few days... and it was the wrong answer.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 9:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Derrek said...
Motet said...
HaraldS said...
...the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly...

If it's the same version of phpBB that finaleforum.com uses, I wouldn't say flawlessly.

It's easy enough to see what the Dorico Forum offers without guessing or making assumptions:...

A sentence that starts with "If" is not making assumptions, but I registered there and looked. If there's a way to see only the new postings in a thread, I can't figure it out. I saw your name there, so if you know, please tell me.

It's perhaps not a deal-killer, but it's definitely a flaw.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Ron.
Composer



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Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 11:08 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet: Is this what you are talking about?


Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com


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Motet
Isorhythmic



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   Posted 12/15/2016 12:04 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is probably not the place to discuss this, but you click one of those, you get a list of topics with unread or new posts, right? Then, for each topic, you can either read the whole thing, or jump to the last posting. (If it's long enough, it's broken into pages, and you can go to a page.) But there's nothing to take you to the first unread post. Or am I missing something?

Here, you can click the icon in the "last seen" column.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 12/15/2016 12:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
So, if there is no phone support, and the new forum moves slowly regarding official response, and the standard support approach doesn't work on weekends and takes over 24 hours to get the first response, and 24 hours between responses, I think we've got trouble with a Capital T.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 12/15/2016 5:31 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is an unbelievably dumb plan. This forum is one of the main reasons some of us still use Finale amidst the many other, considerably more modern musical notation programs out there. Finale is complicated, confusing, lacks self-consistency - but we all know that within minutes of having an apparently dead-end problem, if we post it here, one of our fellow Finale users will provide the solution.

Facebook, Twitter and other social media lack the focus that this forum provides. Your amazing customer base, surely your greatest asset, will disperse, and your shareholders will hold you responsible.

Locking this forum will be the Death of Finale.

Brian


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BvdPress
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   Posted 12/15/2016 10:18 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Adam -

Just so I am clear, as I recomend Finale a lot and mention both the phone support and this forum as a serious positive, both the phone support and this forum will be axed beginning in 2017?

As a LONG time supporter of Finale and a person that is overly critical of the product with the sole goal of getting a better product, I would ask MakeMusic to reconsider what they are doing. If the goal is drive support away for the product, GOAL ACHIEVED! And very loud and clear. Basically the customers and the base do not matter one iota to MakeMusic.

With other viable options out there, Finale had a really good thing going here (mostly because of the loyal users) and via phone support. I concur with Brian on the Death of Finale.

Ugh...


Bryan Doughty
BVD Press, Music Express, BrassWorks4, Timber Ridge Music,
Kiwi Press, Serendipity Press and Cimarron Music Press
[email protected]
http://www.cimarronmusic.com/

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Ron.
Composer



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Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/15/2016 11:27 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let's not exaggerate the effect of killing this forum and telephone support. It will not mean the death of Finale. They will just brush that off as an over-reaction. However, it will seriously harm MM's reputation and eviscerate a very attractive feature of Finale--this forum and the rapid 24x7 response to customer problems and concerns--that costs MM nothing.


Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 12/15/2016 11:38 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll bet they're closing this forum because of all the talk about Dorico. Maybe they think Dorico will go away if Finale users don't hear about it here.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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