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Ron.
Composer



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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 1:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why would phone support be going away? Sometimes it's the most convenient way to get a fast fix to an urgent problem. I'm getting a very uneasy feeling about the direction MM is headed.


Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 12:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
HaraldS said...
...the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly...

If it's the same version of phpBB that finaleforum.com uses, I wouldn't say flawlessly. There's apparently no way to see only what's new to you in a thread. It will show you which threads have new postings, but you then have to hunt for your place. For all the drawbacks of the dotNetBB forum software here, they got that part right.

On another note, someone reported in the Mac forum that MM phone support is going away in January. Can someone from MakeMusic confirm? I can't say that I've used it, but I worry about the situation of authorization breaking. If for some reason that happens (I have to recover my system, say), do I have to go through the Zendesk forums to straighten it out?


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, 32-bit
MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/14/2016 11:58:19 AM (GMT-6)

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HaraldS
Registered Member

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Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 310
 
   Posted 12/14/2016 7:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
CraigP said...
Don't they want to cultivate a user community?


Obviously no. Finale users aren't primarily recognized by MM as musicians who could help each other in a productive environment, but (according to the department's name) are recognized as customers who could have success.

CraigP said...
Why does it even exist?


Well, good question. It doesn't have the necessary features and thus is not a step forwards. It could be so easy, the Dorico and Notat.io forums rely on phpBB and work flawlessly. Instead, MM doesn't listen to the user's needs and a working composer's reality. In politics, we call that "post-factual" politics. Ironically, the german word "postfaktisch" was elected for "Word of the year 2016" just five days ago.

Harald


Finale 3.0-2014.5, german edition, Windows 7
mostly hardware synths/keys, Cubase 7 / trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

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CraigP
Registered Member

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Date Joined Apr 2013
Total Posts : 313
 
   Posted 12/13/2016 11:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have a dumb question.

If Finale didn't want to keep using the old forum, which has plenty of limitations of its own, why didn't they simply choose a modern software solution that is actually designed to serve and cultivate a user community? Don't they want to cultivate a user community? There are a bunch out there:
http://www.quertime.com/article/15-best-online-forum-platforms-software-free-and-paid/

And I agree the new forum is just strange. It doesn't feel like a forum or a trouble ticket system. What is it? Why does it even exist? I am having trouble understanding what anyone would ever use that software for.

This is like picking Finale if you need a MIDI editor. Yeah, I guess you can kinda make that work. But who would want to? As a person who often depends on the help of others here, it becomes a big problem if the new forum is too tedious for those users to hang around.
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Derrek
Registered Member

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Total Posts : 2347
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 6:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I do not question the company's intentions. I just think they have made a terrible decision and chosen a product unsuitable for serving their customers.


Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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Total Posts : 29077
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 3:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Seriously, I believe they are trying to run the whole thing into the ground. The serious users will be migrating to other forums, and what's left? The blind leading the blind.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Motet
Isorhythmic



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Date Joined Dec 2002
Total Posts : 12849
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 12:39 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the new forums were envisioned from the perspective of someone needing help--you post a question, then someone answers it you get email. What was not envisioned was a community of users providing the help. To accommodate them the software needs to remember which postings they've seen from visit to visit and to make it easy to see only what's new and to easily revisit a thread they've recently read and or posted in.

Then, as I just posted elsewhere, there's the question of attachments. Yes, one could post a link to something offsite, but the percentage of people who have such storage and the knowledge to do it is likely small. Plus, they're likely to delete the files once the discussion is over. I have posted hundreds of examples here over the years; I can't imagine maintaining that if they were in my own space.

A typical scenario here is someone has a mysterious problem, and the only way of getting to the bottom of it is for them to post their file. In the new forums that might go, "Huh? How do I do that? What's Dropbox? I have to sign up for that? Am I going to get spammed? OK, I created a Dropbox account, now what? OK, I uploaded it there, now what? OK, here's the link--oh, it doesn't work? Let me try again." I just don't see it working.

The forum lets you upload images. It shouldn't be hard to extend that to other attachments. But the navigation issues Derrek mentions are an equally big problem, more than just changing the size of the borders, as someone above promised.


Finale 2014.5, 2011b, 2005, TGTools
Windows 7, MIDI input
Finale Transposition Chart

Post Edited (Motet) : 12/11/2016 1:17:19 PM (GMT-6)

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Derrek
Registered Member

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Total Posts : 2347
 
   Posted 12/11/2016 12:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When I Google Zendesk, I see a Customer Relations Management software company. My guess is that MM bought the product to track their support calls and that Zendesk then sold them on integrating the whole operation with their cool nifty forum add-on. Perhaps this fits in with MM's SmartMusic clientele, but it is really designed for the company's convenience at the (considerable) expense of the user community.

If MM is committed to Zendesk, for heaven's sake make the user interface more user friendly. I shouldn't have to open a dozen messages to discover which I've seen (several times) before. (The most recent post pulldown has to be pulled down every time I return to the TOC, meaning multiple clicks and drags just to find messages with updated comments.) And spamming my e-mail with update notifications is an intrusion: I don't break off dealing with e-mail to chase some MM squirrel through the Zendesk maze. What kind of idiot design the Zendesk user interface? Clearly no one who ever expected to use it frequently form teh user's side.


Finale 2014.5, Finale 25.1 - Windows 7 (64-bit)
GPO 5, JABB 3, World Instruments
TG Tools Full, (Sonar Platinum, Dorico)

“Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.” — Groucho Marx

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Mike Rosen
himself



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Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 6:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zuill said...
I guess MakeMusic has succeeded in their plan (to drive users away). Remember when Coca-Cola changed their formula, then had to bring Classic Coke back? (Maybe I'm dating myself.) Sometimes things just don't go as planned in the business world. I am guessing they were actually hoping to lose some of us "pot-stirrers". How will they know about the things needing fixing?

Zuill


If you date yourself, who picks up the check?

But nothing needs fixing. Just ask "customer success."



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Ron.
Composer



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Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 5:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The one drawback to this forum is that there is no "like" button, because I would definitely use for Zuill's last comment. :)


Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Zuill
"The Troll"



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Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 5:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I guess MakeMusic has succeeded in their plan (to drive users away). Remember when Coca-Cola changed their formula, then had to bring Classic Coke back? (Maybe I'm dating myself.) Sometimes things just don't go as planned in the business world. I am guessing they were actually hoping to lose some of us "pot-stirrers". How will they know about the things needing fixing?

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Win 7 64bit, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, 25.2
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 12/10/2016 4:09:27 PM (GMT-6)

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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
Polymathist



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Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 883
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 4:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks Peter and Mike.....joined in 2014 but never used as this current forum was more useful to my purposes. But by the end of December when MM finally locks this site I'll be on http://www.finaleforum.com/index.php?sid=a67294fb7e7dcca8bd3fd8b5238927c8


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, Version 25.2; TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.5.0, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, Notion 5 (Notion 5 not really any better than 4, [Notion 6 (bought but not installed)]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

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Michel R. E.
Registered Member



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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 4:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am now registered on Finale Forum as well.


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Zoots
Registered Member

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Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 385
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 4:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mike Rosen said...
Zoots,

I see you on the SmartScore forum, where you are a valued contributor. That forum has (I think) all the features that the members here, want. MM has made a bad choice, not necessarily in moving the forum, but in their choice of a replacement.

I'll look for you to join us at finaleforum.com!


How can I refuse a kind invitation like that!
I am now registered on finaleforum.com and look forward to seeing everybody there.


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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Ralph L. Bowers Jr.
Polymathist



Click to send Ralph L. Bowers Jr. email.Personal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Ralph L. Bowers Jr.AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2012
Total Posts : 883
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 11:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron. said...
They just don't get it..................



They just don't care.

If they really heard what we said they would repeat each and every item and then tell us why with that understanding that this needs to be completed at this point without Zendesk having a fuller feature set to facilitate interactions.


Finale 2010b, 2011b, 2012c, 2014d, 2014.5, Version 25.2; TGTools Pro, Patterson plugins, JW plugins (current for each Finale Instalation)
Sibelius 6.2, 7.1.3, 7.5.1, 8.5.0, Write Score Sound Sets, TMT Publisher Bundle Plugins, Bob Zawalich plugins, Dolet 6.6
Print Music 2004, 2010a, 2011a, 2014a
Progression, Progression 2, Progression 3, Notion 4, Notion 5 (Notion 5 not really any better than 4, [Notion 6 (bought but not installed)]
Pro Tools 9.5, Reaper
Kontakt 5
GPO4, GPO5, World Instruments
SmartScore X Pro, SmartScore X2 Pro, PhotoScore Ultimate 6 & 7 & 8.04 ( 7 has some utility----best of those available, 8 has some issues that need fixing)
M-Audio "Oxygen 25" Midi input keyboard (recent addition 2014)
Systems (5) // Windows XP Pro (32bit), [email protected] Windows 7 Pro, 8.1 Pro, Windows 10 64 bit, 4GB - 16GB RAM
Paper & Pencil

BMus, MM (Musicology)

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Mike Rosen
himself



Email Address Not AvailableClick to visit Mike Rosen's website.Send a Private Message to Mike RosenAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 11:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And unless I missed it, there is no way to send a PM on the new forum. Just another reason not to use it.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Mike Rosen
himself



Email Address Not AvailableClick to visit Mike Rosen's website.Send a Private Message to Mike RosenAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 11:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michael Johnson said...
Hi All:

Thank you for the comments and feedback thus far. The Finale community is a wonderful asset and I look forward to discussions, suggestions, ideas, and solutions about all things Finale and music notation with everyone in the new community.



You can look all you want. But you ain't gonna see it.



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Mike Rosen
himself



Email Address Not AvailableClick to visit Mike Rosen's website.Send a Private Message to Mike RosenAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 11:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zoots,

I see you on the SmartScore forum, where you are a valued contributor. That forum has (I think) all the features that the members here, want. MM has made a bad choice, not necessarily in moving the forum, but in their choice of a replacement.

I'll look for you to join us at finaleforum.com!



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Zoots
Registered Member

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Date Joined May 2010
Total Posts : 385
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 11:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's time to face the music (or reality). MM is not keeping this forum alive and it is gong to get locked.

Members have listed various deficiencies in the new Zendesk forum which indeed make it less than desirable but it is where MM is going to do whatever monitoring and answering. The issue is where do the dissatisfied members move. Go to another forum which do exist or move to the new MM forum and try to work within it to get it improved. I notice that there are already some very familiar names participating on that forum.

I emphasize that it is the members, not the forum software, that makes the community and the quality of answers. It would be a shame if a critical mass of the very knowledgeable users on this forum were seriously fragmented with some going here and some going there. When I last looked there were about 75 responses to the poll about keeping this forum open. That may well represent about 74 very knowledgeable users but it probably is a small drop in the Finale users bucket.

I think I'm going to try living in the new forum and complain from within. I'm not a very knowledgeable user which is why the number is 74, not 75 above :). While a "screw you MM" is my thought, I also see no benefit in shooting near my feet.


Finale 2012c
JABB3/Aria

Smartscore Pro X2

Windows 10

Intel i7 with more than I need

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Ron.
Composer



Email Address Not AvailableClick to visit Ron.'s website.Send a Private Message to Ron.AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 8828
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 10:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
They just don't get it. I, and many other experienced users who have been supporting this community for decades, are not going to the new forum. Period. End of story. You've lost, MakeMusic, more than you seem to realize.


Finale 25.2

GPO5, JaBB3, GIO, COMB2, GWI, GIFF, Steinway Basic.

Windows 7; 10 GB RAM.

www.composeforums.com

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Michel R. E.
Registered Member



Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailableSend a Private Message to Michel R. E.AIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 7430
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 10:37 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
translation

Michael Johnson said...
Hi All:

Thank-you for wasting your time telling us about your needs. We want to take advantage of the Finale community, but on OUR terms, so we're still going to push you to go to the new pointless forum, because we have decided what is best for you. Actually, we've decided what is best for us by ignoring what is actually best for you.

Additionally, no matter the mounds of evidence to the contrary, we believe something blindly enough to damage this community to satisfy our pig-headed need to "do something new", because our incompetent designers would rather distract you from the numerous as-yet unrepaired bugs in Finale with a pointless and uncalled for forum move.

I'll just continue pretending that your feedback actually means something to us.

Cheers,


Finale (started with ver. 3.0) using 2012 (2014 has been shelved for its lack of support for older Garritan libraries), putting Finale 25 through its paces.
Windows 8.1
basically ALL Garritan libraries, plus XSample Chamber Ensemble.

"Art critics suffer from Pigeon Syndrome. Pigeons like to leave their mark on monuments. But at the end of the day, the pigeon remains a pigeon, and the monument remains a monument."

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Mike Rosen
himself



Email Address Not AvailableClick to visit Mike Rosen's website.Send a Private Message to Mike RosenAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Feb 2006
Total Posts : 14146
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 10:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
(Shakes head...)



Mike Rosen
www.specialmillwork.com

Bass with Choir of the Sound www.choirofthesound.org
Volunteer copyist (The Gang of Twelve) for the Barbershop Harmony Society
FINALE TIPS at www.specialmillwork.com/finale-tips-and-tricks/index.html

Finale 2014.5 on El Capitan
Simple Entry, QWERTY keyboard, numberpad. That's my system, and I'm stickin' to it.

"As a musician, he's a damn fine woodworker."

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Michael Johnson
Registered Member



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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 1317
 
   Posted 12/10/2016 10:02 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi All:

Thank you for the comments and feedback thus far. The Finale community is a wonderful asset and I look forward to discussions, suggestions, ideas, and solutions about all things Finale and music notation with everyone in the new community.
Additionally, people learn differently. We offer Quickstart videos, user manuals, and knowledge base articles in addition to the community and the case system. None of this is going away from our Help Center (Centre) and we are certainly always working to improve each of those resources.

Thank you again for your feedback.

Cheers,


Michael Johnson

MacBook Pro
10.11
2.6 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

Surface 4
Win 10

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Writer of Music
Registered Member



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Total Posts : 848
 
   Posted 12/9/2016 10:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
N. Grossingink said...
There is another thing about the new Community Forum that's a bit disconcerting.

Whenever a question is answered, the forum moderator apparently can tag the topic "ANSWERED", which locks the topic preventing further discussion. Not really helpful if you want to mention an alternate technique, word of caution, use of plugin, etc., etc.

N.


Exactly! And aren't precisely the discussions and the alternative solutions what makes this community so valuable? And aren't the best ideas and proposals for improvements, additional features and enhancements the result of many such discussions? Don't find many third party plugins their origin in what was discussed and suggested right here, in this community?


Finale 25.
Mac OS X 10.11.6.

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N. Grossingink
Registered Member



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Date Joined Nov 2002
Total Posts : 3991
 
   Posted 12/8/2016 7:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There is another thing about the new Community Forum that's a bit disconcerting.

Whenever a question is answered, the forum moderator apparently can tag the topic "ANSWERED", which locks the topic preventing further discussion. Not really helpful if you want to mention an alternate technique, word of caution, use of plugin, etc., etc.

N.


OSX El Capitan 10.11.6
Finale 2011c, 2012c for production work

Finale 2014.5, not used by my clients

(Finale v25 - not interested yet)

TgTools, Patterson Plugins, JW Change and Staff Polyphony, QuicKeys 4
Mac Mini 2.4 Ghz Intel, 8GB RAM
New Belgium Fat Tire Ale

"At last, fortissimo!"
–Gustav Mahler, on visiting Niagara Falls

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