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Robert Meyers
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   Posted 11/27/2002 6:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting that this comes up after having just read the sextuplet beaming thread.

I want to make beams automatic when I enter notes. (To use the / key, or one of the other beaming techniques mentioned in this thread makes no sense when entering over a hundred measures of 11/8. The manual (on composite meter) says if you enter 6/8 as 2 dotted quarters in the meter dialog box, it will automatically beam each measure into two groups of 3/8 upon entering notes using speedy entry. But the dialog box uses numbers only. (Unless I'm missing something as to how the program converts from numbers to notes.) My problem is how do I enter a dotted quarter into a dialog box that uses numeric fractions?

I am trying to enter the composite 11/8 as 5 beats of 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 3/8, the 3/8 needs to be a dotted quarter according to the manual. (The meter is in 5, 2+2+2+2+3 beats with a constant 1/8 note tick; or 5 beats where the last is beat is 1.5 times longer than each of the first 4).

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm not sure I've seen a thread on this before. If there is one, please steer me there. If not, some wisdom and experience here will help me a lot. I feel I've missed something basic. (6/8 is pretty basic.)

Thanks,

Bob M.
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Jesper Hendze
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   Posted 11/27/2002 8:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bob,

Referring to the composite time signature dialog box: you want 4 beat groups of quarter notes (denominator 4) and ONE beat group of a dotted quarter (denominator 4+8).So your composite meter should be 4/4 + 1/4+8!

Then click on "more choices" and enter 11/8 in "use another time signature for display" (you have to click on "composite" and clear it before you can select an ordinary time signature).

Hope this helps.

Jesper
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Fugato
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   Posted 11/27/2002 8:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.


> I am trying to enter the composite 11/8 as 5 beats of 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 3/8, the 3/8 needs to be a dotted quarter according to the manual. (The meter is in 5, 2+2+2+2+3 beats with a constant 1/8 note tick; or 5 beats where the last is beat is 1.5 times longer than each of the first 4).
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm not sure I've seen a thread on this before. If there is one, please steer me there. If not, some wisdom and experience here will help me a lot. I feel I've missed something basic. (6/8 is pretty basic.)
>
> Thanks,
> Bob M.

Hi Bob,

This should not be really difficult, but I suggest a different approach.

Why don't you simply create a 2 measures pattern (4/4 + 3/8>dotted quarter)?

You could then use hide barline or tick barline between them.
Then copy the couple of measures as many time as you need.
This way would automatically solve the beaming trick.
Just mind measure numbering then.

Hope this helps.

Fugato
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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 11/27/2002 8:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bob,

The Time signature is a very tolerant tool that allows you to enter the "beaming pattern" in 3 ways.

Before I explain the 3 ways, you should note that in the Time Signature dialog box you can click the button "More Choices" and check the option "Use a Different Time Signature for Display". Thus you can have the time signature display as 11/8, even if the beaming pattern is more complex.

Have you set the time signature to display 11/8? OK, here goes:

Click the button "Composite" to get to the Composite Time Signature dialog box. This is where you set up the beaming pattern.

1. The "Numerator Method": Enter 2+2+2+2+3 over 8.

2. The "Denominator Method": Enter 4 over 4 and 1 over 4+8 (= a quarter plus an 8th = a dotted quarter)

3. The "EDU Method": Check "Use EDUs for Beat Duration", and enter 4 over 1024 and 1 over 1536.

Method #1, the Numerator Method, has the limitation that you can't create a beaming pattern that beams together all the notes in a measure, like a 5/8 with all the five 8ths beamed together. But the two other methods don't have that limitation.

Peter
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guser
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   Posted 11/28/2002 4:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
   >> Method #1, the Numerator Method, has the limitation that you can't create a beaming pattern that beams together all the notes in a measure, like a 5/8 with all the five 8ths beamed together.

This aspect of the TS tool has always struck me as inconsistent. After all, if you enter 3+2/8, Finale understands it to mean that the first beat group consists of three eighth notes, beamed together; and the second beat group consists of two eighth notes, also beamed together.

So when you enter 5/8 in the Composite Window, or even 5+0/8, why doesn't it interpret that as wanting one beat group consisting of five eighth notes, all beamed together?

Well, at least now that this has been brought to Coda's attention, I'm sure it will be given the prompt attention they always show to user concerns.
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Robert Meyers
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   Posted 11/28/2002 5:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jesper, Peter, Fugato and Anon....

Thanks for the much valued input. I will try everything. Is all of this somewhere in the manual, or did you guys discover all of this by experience?

Happy Thanksgiving Day! (At least here in the U.S.)

Bob M.
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Fugato
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   Posted 11/28/2002 6:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

> From: "Robert Meyers"
>
> Jesper, Peter, Fugato and Anon....
>
> Thanks for the much valued input. I will try everything. Is all of this somewhere in the manual, or did you guys discover all of this by experience?


Excuse me Bob, I must apologize:

The solution I gave is not really the best, you should & must prefer Jesper's or Peter's which are much more professional & easier.

I didn't want you to get involved in stupid issues, but for my defense it was quite early in the morning when I replied.

And I had not my cup of coffee.

Please, do forgive me, Bob.
Anyway, it works, but better forget it...
Fugato
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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 11/28/2002 10:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On 11/28/2002 10:29:00 AM, Robert Meyers wrote:
>...Is all of this somewhere in
>the manual, or did you guys
>discover all of this by
>experience?...>


A look in the manual, in the section about the Composite Time Signature dialog box revealed that the "Denominator Method" ( Method #2) isn't documented. Jesper posted it in this forum a couple of years ago.

Method #1 (Numerator Method) and Method #3 (EDU Method) are documented.

By The Way:
There is one more feature in Method #1 (Numerator Method): You can use decimals. Instead of 2+2+2+2+3 over 8 you can write 1+1+1+1+1.5 over 4.
Or 4 over 4 and 1.5 over 4.

Peter
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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 11/28/2002 11:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
"Method #1, the Numerator Method, has the limitation that you can't create a beaming pattern that beams together all the notes in a measure, like a 5/8 with all the five 8ths beamed together. But the two other methods don't have that limitation."

Oops! This is not true. I have to correct myself:

To create a beaming pattern that beams together all the notes in a measure, e. g. 5/8:

with Method #1, the Numerator Method, use decimals:
1.25 over 2
or
0.625 over 1

with Method #2, the Denominator Method:
1 over 2+8

Peter
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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 11/28/2002 7:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
...and further investigation reveals that the use of decimals should be limited to values below 1.

1.25 over 2 will beam the five 8ths as 4+1

But 0.625 over 1 will give a 5/8 with all five 8ths beamed together.

On The Other Hand: You CAN use values above 1 as soon as there is a plus sign:

1.5+1 over 4 gives 3+2 8ths (note 2+1+2 8ths).

Peter
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Robert Meyers
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   Posted 11/29/2002 7:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter....

Thanks again for all your info on this subject. I must say that my face is a bit red, because I posted my problem after having read only the part of the manual near the beginning on "Meter" (p. 12-7), and didn't get to the "Composite Meter" section (p. 12-10), where the obvious discussion of the matter at hand takes place. (Sorry about that. Sometimes when I look for the solution to a problem, some of my old impatience kicks in when I don't get the answer early on, and I don't look far enough.) I saw the diagram at the upper left on p. 12-7 which shows dotted quarter notes, twice, for 6/8 meter (in the window showing notes). I suspect this is inaccurate, because this actually doesn't happen for me when I enter 1 over 4+8 two times. I get (in the window showing notes) a quarter + an eighth note, twice. This implies, to me, no beaming. I only tried this after the fact of getting help from this thread. Initially, I hadn't a clue as to what to enter based on what I had read to that point. I think Coda should clarify how numbers should be entered at that point in the manual, instead of waiting until the Composite Meter section 3 pages later.

However, to move on, I used the denominator method (I guess) in my piece when I saw the first responses in this thread. For 11/8, I entered 1 over 4, four times, and then 1 over 4+8, once. It works like a charm, so I'm off and running. So thanks for all the good input.

Your attention to the problem is most appreciated. Not to make excuses, but even though I initially hadn't looked far enough, I guess we can say that this discussion was worth while because it has uncovered certain inconsistencies which all of us, I'm sure, will be happy to see will be fixed someday by our friends at Coda.

Thanks again. All the best,

Bob M.
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