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fcopaja
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   Posted 9/23/2003 7:59 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
9/8 measure, going 8th-8th-8th 8th-8th-8th and a DUPLET.
I say it should be quarter-quarter, not 8th-8th, but in speedy, after doing CRTL-2 and entering "5", the cursor jumps to the next measure.

Am I correct?

Felipe
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 9/23/2003 8:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Felipe-

This is one occasion where Finale is
smarter than we are - it should be
eighth/eighth.

N.
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David Young : chambermusic
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   Posted 9/23/2003 8:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is the one exception to the general rule.

In general, tuplet notes should add up to a time value greater than the time value that they are played.

Three 8th notes in a triplet added up to the length of a quarter note and a half without the triplet designation. With the triplet designation, the length of time is just a quarter note.

If one wants to place 10 notes within the length of two quarter notes, one writes for ten 16th notes, and applies a tuplet figure 10 over the notes. One would ordinarily write for exactly eighth 16th notes within the length of two quarters. If one wants to place 10 notes in the length of time of one quarter note, one should write for ten 32nd notes, and place the 10. One would ordinarily write for eight 32nd notes.

Historically, in 6/8 meter, one would write for two 8th notes in place of three 8th notes. This breaks the rule. According to the general rule, it should be two quarter notes. But historically, the rule is different for 6/8 (or 9/8 or 12/8) meter.

I agree with Filipe on this matter.

David
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Dan Powers
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   Posted 9/23/2003 10:06 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
My notation books suggest quarter-quarter as a more logical notation. However, I agree that eighth-eighth is historically used more often.

Dan Powers
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fcopaja
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   Posted 9/23/2003 10:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ross shows that two 8th should be used, not two quarters, though he doesn't really explain what to do if the irregular group, i.e. the tuplet, has fewer notes than the regular one.
If there are more than twice the number of notes, the next smaller note value must be used.
Following David's statemet, though, two quarters should be used.
If two 8th are to be used, then you could also use an 8th triplet in case you need 3 notes in the space of four 8th, which is of course incorrect, since a quartet triplet should be used.
I wonder if anyone has a clear rule for this case.

Felipe
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fcopaja
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   Posted 9/23/2003 11:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
An alternative might be writing 8th tied to 16th - 8th tied to 16th, or even simpler as two dotted eights.

And extending the problem, what note value should be used when notating 5 notes in the space of 6 eights (3/4)?
Again as 5 quarters are not twice the number of quarters of a regular 3/4 measure, they should be used, although every similar situation I've seen (very few actually) use 5 eights...
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Jared Haschek
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   Posted 9/23/2003 3:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmmm....and if i were to notate a string section passage that had a very fast 2 octave run spread over a half note, I'd notate 15 32nd notes (to be played in the time of 16 32nd notes) (I think I'm backing up someone's point here, but maybe I got confused somewhere along the line)

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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 9/23/2003 8:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here is a related question:

Which layout is the easiest for the performer to read (not necessarily the same as the "correct" layout)?
See the attached example.

I prefer layout B, I think.

Peter
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fcopaja
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   Posted 9/24/2003 2:26 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
B, clearly is better
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jmaher
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   Posted 9/24/2003 4:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I've always followed an old rule (probably from a theory text somewhere) that says "use the unit of division until you reach the level of subdivision, etc."

That means if the beat is a quarter, the division of the beat is the eighth. Therefore, use eighths for all tuplets until reaching four to a beat--sixteenths. Keep using sixteenths for tuplets until you reach eight to a beat, which would require 32nds, etc.

The same applies to compound meters. If a dotted quarter is the beat, the eighth is the division of the beat. Use eighths until you reach six to a beat, which requires sixteenths, etc.

Does this make sense? I'd rather work from a general rule than specifics, if possible.
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jmaher
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   Posted 9/24/2003 8:40 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Correction: To follow the same pattern in a compound meter: if a dotted quarter is the beat, then two quarters fill the space of one beat.
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Peter Thomsen
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   Posted 9/24/2003 8:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On 9/24/2003 9:32:00 AM, John Maher wrote:
>..."use
>the unit of division until you
>reach the level of
>subdivision, etc."
>
>That means if the beat is a
>quarter, the division of the
>beat is the eighth.
>Therefore, use eighths for all
>tuplets until reaching four to
>a beat--sixteenths. Keep
>using sixteenths for tuplets
>until you reach eight to a
>beat, which would require
>32nds, etc.
>
>The same applies to compound
>meters. If a dotted quarter
>is the beat, the eighth is the
>division of the beat. Use
>eighths until you reach six to
>a beat, which requires
>sixteenths, etc...
>

John,

That sounds like a useful rule when the tuplet spans only one beat.

But how would you use your rule in this case:

Time signature 9/8. The dotted quarter is the beat. Notate a 5-tuplet that spans a whole measure (= 3 dotted quarters).

If I understand you correctly, your rule would give "10 eighths against 9 eighths" (= 5-tuplet quarters). Do I understand you correctly?

Peter
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annacrusis
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   Posted 9/24/2003 6:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It has always seemed to me that 'normal' tuplets can be thought of as being 'compressed', i.e., the tuplet note values are too big to fit in the available metric space. The 'rule' is to minimize the compression, that is, to pick a note value for the tuplet such that it is just barely too big.

By contrast, duplets can be thought of as being 'stretched', i.e., the duplet note values are too small to fill the available metric space. So the 'rule' is reversed, instead of trying to minimize the compression, we seek to minimize the stretch, hence we pick a note value for the duplet such that it is just barely too small.

If you think of it this way, duplets are not an exception or a special case.

Anna
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fcopaja
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   Posted 9/25/2003 3:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Then I assume you agree with me and others, using quarter notes for a duplet in compound time, as opposed to Ross. Don't you?
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tbmartin
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   Posted 9/25/2003 6:50 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think she's DISagreeing with you. If I understand Anna correctly:

In compound meter, the logic would be:
Duplets are "stretching" the values, so pick the largest note that's still too SMALL.
2 Eighths are too small to fill a compound beat
2 Quarters are too big
Therefore, a duplet should be 2 eighths.

Anna: Did I capture that right?
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jmaher
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   Posted 9/25/2003 7:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter,

>But how would you use your rule in this
>case:

>Time signature 9/8. The dotted quarter is
>the beat. Notate a 5-tuplet that spans a
>whole measure (= 3 dotted quarters).

>If I understand you correctly, your rule
>would give "10 eighths against 9 eighths"
>(= 5-tuplet quarters). Do I understand you
>correctly?

Yeah....I think that's right. I'd do some
more checking before putting that one in
print, though.

John
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jmaher
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   Posted 9/25/2003 7:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Am I wrong in thinking (in compound meters) of duplets as a borrowed division from simple meters, and triplets (in simple meters)as a borrowed division from compound meters? It's the other stuff--especially when they are nested or when they span several units of beat--that makes my eyes glaze over.
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Graeme Gilmore
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   Posted 9/25/2003 9:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
From Music Engraving Today, page 25.

Steven Powell has the following to say of an example in of 6/8 time with two notes in the place of the usual three.

"The first measure in compound time represents the most contentious items. The example I give follows the suggestions of Kurt Stone [using two quarter notes with a duple bracket]. Both Ross and Read disagree, recommending two eighths for the duplet. Examples in music literature are also inconsistent, so you will have to use your best judgment."


My preference is to follow Ross and Read.

Graeme
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annacrusis
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   Posted 9/25/2003 10:48 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
   >> Anna: Did I capture that right?

Yup. I guess my explanation wasn't very clear. I would definitely use eighths for duplets in 6/8 or 9/8 meter.

Anna
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