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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 9/30/2003 7:22 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have a Fakebook-style document where
the clef is set to appear on the first staff
only. How do you force the display of a
clef, say further down the page or on page
2?

Thanks!
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GT
It was some other guy.



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   Posted 9/30/2003 7:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
With a Staff Style, I'd guess.

Cheers,

Gary
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 9/30/2003 8:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks Gary - staff styles weren't doing it
for me but I found another way. Create a
clef change for that measure only but
change to the same clef - check "always
show" in the dialog box.

N.
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Jetcopy
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   Posted 9/30/2003 8:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Under document options, keys signatures, there's
an option to check which will display the clef only
on the top staff of each page.


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GT
It was some other guy.



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   Posted 9/30/2003 12:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Two good bits of information there.

Thanks N. and Anon. (If that is indeed your name.)

;-)
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sPretzel
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   Posted 11/16/2009 8:28 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Reviving this thread. I want to force the clef to display in a given measure, even though there is no clef change. I have tried what is indicated here and the clef sign does not want to show (it only displays at the beginning of the staff). How do I go about it?

Finale 2007c.
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Jeanne R
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   Posted 11/16/2009 10:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sPretzel said...
Reviving this thread. I want to force the clef to display in a given measure, even though there is no clef change. I have tried what is indicated here and the clef sign does not want to show (it only displays at the beginning of the staff). How do I go about it?

Finale 2007c.



In 2008, you click on the clef tool and click in the measure. Pick the same clef and check ALWAYS show. You *may* also want to check AFTER the barline at the bottom.


Hope that's useful,

Jeanne


Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3

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sPretzel
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   Posted 11/16/2009 11:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Jeanne. Thanks. I had omitted checking the Show Clef in the Change Clef menu because it did not show up (for some reason, only the Clef Selection displays sometimes, without the additional Change Clef menu in the same window - it seems to have to do with the sequence with which I select the Clef Tool and the measure.). I have this sorted.
However, I now face another problem. I check the box "Place clef after barline", and the clef shows after the key signature; if I don't check that box, the clef shows before the key signature AND before the barline! I would like the clef to display as it should: between the barline and the key signature of the measure it applies to.

Finale 2007c.

Post Edited (sPretzel) : 11/16/2009 10:46:07 PM (GMT-6)

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sPretzel
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   Posted 11/17/2009 12:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here is what I am stuck on (attached). There are several issues here:
1- I used Fit Music in Page Layout Tool to fit only two bars on this page. I see two bars PLUS the key signature of the 3rd bar!
2- The clef is supposed to display after barline (with the Clef Tool, used "Create a clef change at beginning of measure" and checked the "Place clef after barline" box). It does so, but the clef shows AFTER the key signature!

Any help?

Finale 2007c.
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Jeanne R
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   Posted 11/17/2009 5:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The clef should be alone in a measure and the key and time changes in the next measure.

I'm a little unclear about whether you feel constrained by the number of measures per system, you can alter that system-by-system with that utility.

Hope this helps but remember it *is* kludge (and I'm using 2008),

Jeanne


Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3


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Jeanne R
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   Posted 11/17/2009 6:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sPretzel said...
Here is what I am stuck on (attached). I see two bars PLUS the key signature of the 3rd bar!
Finale 2007c.



Sorry I missed the first part. The courtesy key at the end of a system, is controllable in DOCUMENT > DOCUMENT OPTIONS > KEY SIGS > UNcheck "display courtesy... etc." Hope that's the same in 2007. Maybe someone else can tell us if not.


Looks like I accidentally deleted one of my interim posts but I think the full story is what is still here. I'll re-post if nec.


Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3

Post Edited (Jeanne R) : 11/17/2009 5:52:05 PM (GMT-6)

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sPretzel
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   Posted 11/19/2009 9:30 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Jeanne. That was an enlightening post but I don't understand why the clef has to appear in a measure by itself.
If I judge by barlines and measure numbers on my end, I see the clef appear before the barline (technically, in the previous measure it is supposed to apply to), while the key signature appears after the barline inside the correct measure.
I can reproduce what you've done but as you said, that means the clef has to live in its own measure by itself. This also poses problems of spacing between the clef and the music/time signature vs. the spacing that applies to the first clef on the staff. In fact, that is visible on your attachment.

I don't think I'm asking something unusual from Finale here (clef change within the piece and displaying it), so I am surprised as to why there is no apparent standard feature to support it (as opposed to a workaround).
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Flint
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   Posted 11/20/2009 10:00 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't understand what the OP is trying to accomplish. Please post a drawing or mockup.

And why hasn't anyone recommended simply using the Measure tool to set the Measure attributes to "Always Display" for that particular measure?


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

Post Edited (Flint) : 11/20/2009 9:22:20 AM (GMT-6)

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Motet
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   Posted 11/20/2009 12:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There's not such an attribute for clefs, only key and time signatures.


Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

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Flint
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   Posted 11/20/2009 2:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hrm, I could've sworn that was the case (if I'm wrong, so be it, and thanks for the correction).
Either way, I'd still like a further explanation of exactly what the OP is trying to do.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 11/20/2009 2:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
There's not such an attribute for clefs, only key and time signatures.


1. Select Clef Tool
2. Right click in measure
3. Select clef
4. Select checkbox "show clef always"
5. If needed, select checkbox "place clef after barline"

I believe this is what Flint was referring to. (it isn't in the measure tool, but the clef tool)


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2010
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010
Full GPO (Kontakt), GPO 4 (Aria), Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, Garritan Concert and Marching Band
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Michel R. Edward
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Post Edited (QcCowboy) : 11/20/2009 1:28:32 PM (GMT-6)

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Motet
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   Posted 11/20/2009 3:59 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
He said Measure tool.

A nice addition since my 2005 version. I wonder why it's not a measure attribute, though; time and key signatures have their own tools, after all, but forcing them to show is a measure attribute.

Flint, the OP has set the clef to appear only on the first staff, a la the convention followed by some forms of popular music, but would like the clef to appear in select other places. Sounds like Michel has the solution; I don't understand putting the clef in its own measure, etc.


Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

Post Edited (Motet) : 11/20/2009 3:03:41 PM (GMT-6)

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Flint
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   Posted 11/20/2009 4:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
AHA, now I see the problem... it's not the OP I was confused about, it was the thread necromancer, sPretzel.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009b using Speedy Entry - no capslock, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

If the composer says in effect to the performer: "I do not care whether you perform my music or not," we cannot argue the matter. But if he indicates: "I want you to perform and respond to this music," then his fundamental duty is to write his music so that it is accessible to interpretation. When the performer cannot approach the composer's meaning because of capriciously obscure notation, he may in effect say to the composer: "Why should I bother to puzzle out your music?" - Gardner Read

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 11/20/2009 4:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
He said Measure tool.


I know, that's why I mention it in my last sentence :-)


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2010
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010
Full GPO (Kontakt), GPO 4 (Aria), Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, Garritan Concert and Marching Band
Win XP


Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher, music administrator

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Jeanne R
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   Posted 11/20/2009 4:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sPretzel said...
I don't understand why the clef has to appear in a measure by itself.... problems of spacing ...



As I said, kludge. Definitely leave for last.

Jeanne


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Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3

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Jeanne R
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   Posted 11/20/2009 4:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Motet said...
I don't understand putting the clef in its own measure, etc.


To get it after the bar line but before the key sig. See image posted 11/17/2009 12:59 PM (GMT -6)


Jeanne
Win XP Pro, Finale 2008a, GPO 3

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Motet
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   Posted 11/20/2009 4:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I clearly haven't been paying close enough attention.


Finale 2005b
Windows XP Professional, Service Pack 3
Intel Core 2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80 GHz, 4 GB of RAM

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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 11/20/2009 5:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
sPretzel said...
I don't think I'm asking something unusual from Finale here (clef change within the piece and displaying it), so I am surprised as to why there is no apparent standard feature to support it (as opposed to a workaround).


Finale handles clef changes within a piece exactly per the rules of notation.
Finale also handles the changes of key signature per the rules of standard notation.

The issue here, I think - if I am understanding what you are asking for - is that you are asking Finale to deal with a key change AND a change of clef within a piece in a non-standard manner.

A clef change occurs when the clef... well, "changes".
When a clef changes to a different clef, it appears BEFORE a barline, when in the middle of a staff system.

As has been requested, is there any way of you including an image of what you really need and the purpose behind it?
I think there are a lot of people confused by what exactly you are asking Finale to do.


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2010
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010
Full GPO (Kontakt), GPO 4 (Aria), Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, Garritan Concert and Marching Band
Win XP


Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher, music administrator

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sPretzel
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   Posted 11/20/2009 10:32 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let me clarify. Jeanne R pretty much understood the problem at hand here. What I want to achieve is what Jeanne R is showing in the image she posted on 11/17/2009 5:29 PM, on the second staff (clef is between barline and new key signature). What I originally got to when I posted was the image I attached on 11/17/2009 12:59 PM (GMT -6) - my clef appears before the barline.

My post was somewhat related to the original poster's question, but slightly more specific.

That being said, if the rules of notation are, as QcCowboy said, that a clef change appears before a barline, I was not aware of that. In my case here, I want to force the display of the clef in any given measure (it so happens that there is no clef change, since it's all treble clef).

There have been a few suggestions made here by Jeanne R, as well as Peter Thomsen (email) which have given me some pointers to work with. Thank you!
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Michel R. E.
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   Posted 11/20/2009 11:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm just trying to understand the context of what you wish to achieve.
You're talking about a case with no clef, then forcing the same clef to re-appear.
Are you writing exercises? or examples for a book?

What I'm suspecting is that you MIGHT be causing yourself more trouble than you really need.
There is, as Jeanne demonstrated, a work-around for the end result you want.
However, I was mostly responding to your comment that "finale should be able to do this".
Since it's NOT a standard manner of notating, there's no "should be able to" involved without a bit of work-around.
Finale well let you notate pretty much anything, even things that defy the rules of engraving.
Things that are non-standard require a bit more work to achieve due to their, to put it bluntly, non-standard nature.
There is no reason for Finale to automatically do something that defies convention.

I'm not trying to come down on you like a ton of manuscript paper.
I'm just trying to be fair about what Finale should and should not be able to achieve with what sort of simplicity.


Finale versions: 3.0 -> 2010
currently installed: 2006c, 2007c, 2008a, 2009, 2010
Full GPO (Kontakt), GPO 4 (Aria), Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Stradivari Violin, Gofriller Cello, Garritan Concert and Marching Band
Win XP


Michel R. Edward
Composer, teacher, music administrator

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