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Craig William Dayton
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 34
 
   Posted 1/16/2004 6:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Colleagues...
 
In an earlier post (NEW TO THE FORUM - A QUESTION ABOUT SAMPLES), I promised that I would return to the Forum and detail some of my experiences, as I struggle to learn what is very new to me:  working with samples.  I am going to start this thread and just add to it over time. 
 

PART ONE

 
I have no idea as to what I will write.  I do not know how long I will write it.  But, I am making the start today, January 16, 2004. 
 
I do not expect anyone to respond to it.  If you ask me a question about samples early on, it would probably be like the blind leading the blind, and I would not be able to help you much.  So...this will be more of a "day in the life of Craig Dayton as he hammers his way through sampling".  Perhaps some of my experiences will help someone else.
 
Before I begin, I want to say a few words about Finale and my appreciation for those who have developed it and continue to advance the product.
 
As some of you know already, I am not the youngest guy on this Forum.  I will turn 54 on January 23, 2004.  I have been composing since my very early years and arranging/orchestrating music since 1973.  If you want to know more about me, head on over to www.craigdayton.com.  But, for now...please keep reading this post.
 
I KNOW what it was like before Finale.  I would guess that many of you do as well, but there some of you who are not old enough to know what it was like before Finale. 
 
Picture this:  a much younger Craig Dayton...very much the struggling composer...sitting in a cold room in a tiny one-room apartment, because he could not afford high energy bills and had to keep the heat down or off, trying to copy out the parts of an arrangement for a Polka band (www.jimmysturr.com) or any number of Big Bands.  I would work until all hours of the morning with ink and paper, trying to get the assignment done, so I could get it into the mail…so I could have some money coming in.  Sometimes, I could barely hold the pen in my hand, because my hands had become so cold that I would get an acute pain every time the pen touched my knuckles.  Not an easy time in Uncle Craig's life.  
 
Then there were the times when mistakes were made in the copy work (I had to transpose in my head and do the copy work at the same time), and staff correction tape had to be laid down.  It got a little messy.  By the way, if you have never had the "fun" time of doing ink copy to paper and transposing at the same time, give it a shot.  You'll return to Finale in a heartbeat.
 
And, of course, there were those rare times, when an arrangement was done, the copy work was done, the chart was in the mail...but the post office lost the package.  Think about the amount of work that would be involved and think about how something like that takes the wind out of ones sails, so to speak, not to mention the loss of income.  (I still cannot figure out how the post office can lose a package that big!  It must take a special skill, as the package(s) has never appeared in two decades.)
 
Well...if you read the above, then you have a little idea as to how much I appreciate Finale.  For example, had the post office lost the chart, and I had written it in Finale...I'd simply print off another copy and drop it into the mail again.  Now THAT is cool.
 
Are there frustrations at times when working with Finale?  Of course there are.  We all know that.  But overall, I say thank God for Finale and for all those who have dedicated their lives to it.  I really cannot praise these people enough.  If any Finale folks are reading this, I owe you a letter of thanks.  Trust me, I will write that letter someday soon.
 
Anyway, that’s where I am coming from in terms of Finale.  I will bring Finale back into the discussion, but first I will start with GigaStudio.
 

So now…on to "Uncle" Craig's sampling biography…

 
I have Finale 2002.  Within a few weeks, I will be upgrading to Finale 2004.
 
My sampler (the software that plays the samples) is GigaStudio 2.5.  This week (1/12/04), TASCAM (software owner) announced the soon to be released, and much awaited, GigaStudio 3.0.  Most likely, I will be upgrading to that as well.  Though…having to upgrade to a major release a couple of weeks after I just bought the product is a little odd. 
 
So…lesson number one:  expect upgrades all the time to the sampler (in my case, GigaStudio) and the samples (e.g., Wesgate Winds, Dan Dean Brass, etc.) themselves.  If you cannot live with that, don’t even think about getting on this horse.
 
I learned early on that I needed to upgrade my PC’s hardware.  You need a LOT of free disk space.  I “only” had a one 40 GB hard drive.  I had to buy a 200 GB second drive.  The files used in the GigaStudio format are called “gig” or “giga” format…and some SINGLE files can be OVER 1 GB!!!  Make sure you have plenty of disk space.  Also, the Santa Cruz soundcard that I had was not GigaStudio compatible, and so I had to buy a new one.  If the soundcard is not compatible, GigaStudio won’t even load.
 
This is my PC’s setup.
 
HARDWARE
 
Dell Dimension 4100 computer
 
C-drive is 40 GB
 
D-drive is 200 GB
 
NOTE: GigaStudio stresses the importance of using DMA (direct access) disks.  As hard as I tried to find out if the disk that I had and the disk that I was buying was DMA, I just couldn’t.  So…buy the best and fastest disks you can and keep your fingers firmly crossed…or find someone who can tell you if they are DMA disks are not.  I still don’t know if I have DMA disks, but things seem to be working.
 
Soundcard is Midiman (a.k.a., M-Audio) Delta 66
 
RAM is 256 MB  (I have an idea that I will be buying more RAM, even though GigaStudio does not rely that heavily on RAM…well, its always good.)
 
CPU is 1 GHz
 

SOFTWARE

 
My operating system (OS) is Windows 2000 with service pack 4 (SP4).
 
 
That’s the way the computer looks.  Of course, I have other software on the computer, such as Sonar 3 Producer and Roxio CD creator and other software, but as a rule, I keep my PC rather uncluttered.  I like things sparse and clean.  If I have not used software for a while, chances are pretty good that it will be uninstalled.
 
I’m going to stop at this point.  I will return with part two.
 
 
END PART ONE
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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David Young : chambermusic
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   Posted 1/16/2004 6:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, Craig, your post is as interesting as it is long... for me.

I have been thinking about getting a new computer and Gigastudio for a year or so, and until now have alway said to myself... well, I'll wait until Gigastudio 3.0 comes out. Well, it is out now. Just an hour ago I printed most of the specs and news items on the Tascam site.

Just how one can achieve excellent playback with Finale and Gigastudio is still a mystery to me. I am very much familiar with the concepts of "notes, barlines, measures, articulations, dynamics, modulations, tempos, rests, ritardandos" but am not at all familiar with the concepts of "looping, cross fades, envelopes, etc. etc." And I am afraid that there is very little written on the latter subject for beginners.

All the same, I feel the need to purchase Gigastudio, a new computer and the rest of the gear necessary to make full use of the product.

I just purchased Garritan Personal Orchestra and found that I had to put midi files from Finale into Cubasis and play them back. I feel very awkward with this process, did not like the results one bit, but excuse it by considering that I don't know the product and don't have enough RAM on my laptop.

I'll be interested to hear what else you have to say.

David


David Young
 
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.
 
Finale 2.4 through 2004a
PC, windows XP home, 2.4 ghz, 516 RAM

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Craig William Dayton
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Total Posts : 34
 
   Posted 1/16/2004 6:51 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
David...
I hear you, partner.  One thing that I want to stress, and you seem to be doing it is, take it slowly.  Research all the parts (hardware, software, everthing) that you need to buy.  Carefully compare prices on the internet.  Once you have done your research, THEN make the purchase.  You can spend gigadollars very fast.
You mentioned Garritan.  That is a very reputable company, and Mr. Garritan is well respected.  However, I do not have experience with their Personal Orchestra.  I can say, though, that what you described seems odd, and I've not had to do that in Gigastudio.  I just play Finale and it goes into the samples...boy, now THAT was a dumb technical explanation.  More on that process later.
Oddly enough, I have been trying to get in touch with Mr. Garritan to purchase their famous GOS (Garritan Orchestral Strings) TODAY...but he has not returned my call.  Perhaps he is ill.  Perhaps...well, I will have something to say about all of that in one of my updates.  It is something that I feel very strongly about:  customer service.
Take care,





Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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Craig William Dayton
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   Posted 1/16/2004 7:31 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

PART TWO:  THE GIGASTUDIO REGISTRATION PROCESS (1/16/04)

 
After you go through the GigaStudio registration process, you will probably kneel down and kiss the feet of those at Finale.  I totally understand the need to protect copyrights but man, what a goofy process GigaStudio has for registration.
 
My advice up front:  DO IT OVER THE PHONE!!!  But you cannot do it over the phone unless….read on…
 
To get registered at GigaStudio, you need a registration KEY.  But, you cannot get the registration KEY unless you have the CD Key and your registration NUMBER. 
 
The CD key is on the CD case itself.  Simple enough.
 
The registration NUMBER…well, THAT’S another thing altogether.
 
Installing GigaStudio is pretty straightforward.  Assuming that you have all the compatible software, it will install…and you MUST install to get the registration NUMBER.  Are you starting to get the feel of a Catch 22 going on here?  If you need support, you must be registered.  But, to get registered you must have a registration NUMBER…which you cannot get registered unless you install successfully.  See my point?
 
But…even though you get through the install process…you STILL do not have the registration number in your little hands yet.  For that, you MUST launch GigaStudio for the first time and get through the online registration process from WITHIN GigaStudio.
 
IMPORTANT NOTE:  the registration process within the GigaStudio product will expect you to fill in the “business” name field.  If you do not have a business, just think about what you would LIKE to have for a business name and fill it in, e.g., Orchestrations by Dayton, Music by Mike…whatever.  Again, you MUST type in a name.
 
Once you get through this process, it is THEN…THEN that the registration.txt file is written to your hard disk.  Why is the registration.txt file so important?  It is important because the registration NUMBER is contained within the registration.txt file.
 
At THIS point, you might have “told” the GigaStudio software to send in the registration online.  Forget it. They NEVER got back to me with that process. Once you have that registration NUMBER, call GigaStudio and ask to register your GigaStudio.  They will want information that is within the registration.txt file (e.g., the above mentioned business name), so print it out or have it on the screen.
 
After you phone GigaStudio and give them all the information they need, it is then that they give you the registration KEY.  That is what you will need to type into GigaStudio, or each time you launch GigaStudio, you will get the registration window over and over and over and over and over…get my point?!
 
Well…even workaholics like me need to rest, and so I will call it quits for the weekend.  Hang in there everyone!  For those of you in the Northeast...keep warm.  I’ll be back.
 
END PART TWO (1/16/04)


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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Snorlax
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   Posted 1/16/2004 7:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi, All...
I also have Garritan Personal orchestra. Gary is on vacation, and his WIFE answered an email question of mine QUICKLY! My experience with GPO has been quite positive.


As to interfacing it with Finale, a sequencer is helpful but not imperative.  Get MIDIYOKE, a free download.  Install it.  Set Finale's MIDI OUT to MIDIYOKE 1.  Set the Kontakt Player's MIDI INPUT to MIDIYOKE 1 and you are home free.  If you need a bigger orchestra, set another MIDI OUT in Finale to MIDIYOKE 2 and run another instance of GPO with MIDIYOKE 2 as an input.
I am still figuring out how to tweak Finale files to work best with GPO.  It may well be easier to use a sequencer.  I'll report back when time permits.  It may be the case that I go to THREE scores per piece--one as the score itself, another for part extraction, and a third for GPO.


Garritan is also coming out with his own MIDIYOKE-type app for GPO.


Jim


GPO is a tool with amazing potential


Jim Williams
 Indianapolis Brass Choir
 N9EJR
 
WinFin 2004a & 2002, TGTools 2.26, P-IV portable, 2.4 gHz, XP Pro, 1gb RAM, 80gb HDD storage (2x40), Besson Sovereign & Holton euphoniums, briefs.

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Ron.
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   Posted 1/16/2004 9:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I, and I'm sure there are lots of us out here, are watching these postings with great interest, to determine where we our going to put our money.
You may not be the youngest member, Craig, but you're not the oldest. I'm 58. Two years ago my therapist told me it's not normal to be constantly composing in one's head and gave me royal H for not following my adolescent dream of composing. So, I hired a teacher and enrolled in the music department at Carleton University. (18 months later I am pleased to report that I have never gotten a grade lower than "A" on any course.) My works are starting to be played locally. Not bad for a young composer just starting out.
But I sure would like to be able to get better sounds out of my computer. I've been in the computer field for more than 20 years and have a pretty good idea what's possible and what isn't.


Ron
Finale 2004a, W98 SE

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Roger Dale
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   Posted 1/16/2004 9:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't mind protection schemes if they are within reason.  I think the Finale protection scheme is well within reason.  However, if the protection scheme makes you jump through stupid hoops then it's a big turn off for me.  It doesn't make sense to spend good money to buy software where the software producer considers you a criminal pirate from the get go.  The protection scheme can make a big difference if you have to re-install software (and this is a strong possibility). I have followed Giga from their beginnings down in Austin TX.  I see cheaper soft synth plugins with sound fonts as the future.  I know there are some good libraries formated for Giga but at some time you have to ask yourself if you want to play the music or do you want to write music for someone else to play. 
 
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Craig William Dayton
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Total Posts : 34
 
   Posted 1/17/2004 2:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron...

I swung by the Finale Forum today, even though I said I'd stay away on the weekend. :))) And, I enjoyed your post. I'm very pleased and happy for you to be following your dream. Everyone should do that. As far as these sounds go, I hope my "diary" on the Forum will help some. Stay tuned.

Jim...

I agree with you. The Garritan folks and products are well respected. Big names use them, including Yanni and other people of note. More on all of that later.

"See" you all next week for "part three"

Enjoy the weekend everyone!


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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David Young : chambermusic
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   Posted 1/18/2004 6:43 AM (GMT 0)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Snorlax said...
Hi, All...
I also have Garritan Personal orchestra. Gary is on vacation, and his WIFE answered an email question of mine QUICKLY! My experience with GPO has been quite positive.


As to interfacing it with Finale, a sequencer is helpful but not imperative.  Get MIDIYOKE, a free download.  Install it.  Set Finale's MIDI OUT to MIDIYOKE 1.  Set the Kontakt Player's MIDI INPUT to MIDIYOKE 1 and you are home free.  If you need a bigger orchestra, set another MIDI OUT in Finale to MIDIYOKE 2 and run another instance of GPO with MIDIYOKE 2 as an input.
I am still figuring out how to tweak Finale files to work best with GPO.  It may well be easier to use a sequencer.  I'll report back when time permits.  It may be the case that I go to THREE scores per piece--one as the score itself, another for part extraction, and a third for GPO.


Garritan is also coming out with his own MIDIYOKE-type app for GPO.


Jim


GPO is a tool with amazing potential
That's what I need to do.  I do like the sounds of GPO, but I am too inexperienced on the subjects of sample playback and sequencers to optimize my output.  Once I have time to work with it and read a little more about it, I should be able to get a better sounds.  My inability to get a good sound at this time is surely due to my own inexperience.
 
I am considering Gigastudio 3.0 very seriously now, but need to save up some money.  In the meantime, I'll be reading quite a bit about the product and the optimal hardware.  And paying much attention to the information provided on the Northernsound Source forums.
 
David
 


David Young
 
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.
 
Finale 2.4 through 2004a
PC, windows XP home, 2.4 ghz, 516 RAM

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David Young : chambermusic
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   Posted 1/18/2004 1:45 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron B. said...
So, I hired a teacher and enrolled in the music department at Carleton University. (18 months later I am pleased to report that I have never gotten a grade lower than "A" on any course.) My works are starting to be played locally. Not bad for a young composer just starting out.
 
Congratulations, Ron!
 
 


David Young
 
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.
 
Finale 2.4 through 2004a
PC, windows XP home, 2.4 ghz, 516 RAM

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Craig William Dayton
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   Posted 1/19/2004 11:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

PART THREE:  CRITICAL CONFIGURATION CHANGES – 001

 
Over the past few days and especially this weekend (1/10/04 – 1/11/04), I have hit a couple of walls that would have caused me to say “no way” on GigaStudio.  Fortunately, I was able to get over those couple of hurdles this weekend.
 
Nevertheless, I am going to suggest to you, Ron and David (and anyone else), to hold off buying GigaStudio right now.  This all gets very expensive, and since I’ve already bought the product along with samples, perhaps it would be better to let me fall on my sword for now and take the hit, just in case GigaStudio is not the right product for us Finale folks.  If that's the case, at least YOU would save the money.  ;-)
 
I say this, because there is another problem that has arisen, after solving the problems that I am going to speak of below.  If I cannot solve this problem (with the help of Finale), then I’m not sure about GigaStudio.  I CAN say, however, that the sounds that I DO get are VERY nice, indeed.
 
Here were the two problems:
 
1 – GigaStudio can be setup to start recording as soon as Finale is played.  This would not work.  Instead of doing this I could merely start GigaStudio recording and then flip over to Finale and start playing and it would record.  However, I would have a few seconds delay in the finished recording, due to flipping over to Finale, and I did not want this.
 
2 – VERY important…I would set up instruments in GigaStudio, but as soon as Finale was played, the instruments would change.  For example, if I set up a trumpet (channel 1), bass clarinet (channel 2), and drums (channel 10) in GigaStudio, as soon as I played Finale, all of the channels would be set to drums.  And, I mean ALL channels: 1 – 16.  So...ONLY the drums would play.
 
The solutions:
 
1 – I have “Phil” of Finale to thank for this solution.  He sent me an older DLL file, finmidi.dll to be precise.  What I did was rename the present finmidi.dll to finmidinew.dll and then copied the older finmidi.dll to the Finale root folder.  The second piece to the fix was to, within Finale (again, I’m using Finale 2000), click on MIDI, then when the MIDI dropdown screen appears, click on MIDI Sync.  BOTH the DLL and the MIDI Sync changes need to be in place for this to work.  Now, all I have to do is setup GigaStudio to wait to record upon Finale’s play signal, and as soon as I play Finale, the GigaStudio recording (a.k.a., Capture to Wave) is executed and the end result is a WAV file that plays nicely with very nice sound.  By the way, I have asked Phil that, when I upgrade to Finale 2004, do I need to copy the older finmidi.dll to the Finale root directory again.  When I get that answer, I will post it here.
 
2 – This problem just about put me over the edge.  I came pretty close to jumping off the roof.  If you think about it, if I cannot get the instruments to STAY the instruments that I have chosen, then all is lost, and GigaStudio cannot be used with Finale.  But, I got through it.  Looking back, it was more of my lack of understanding MIDI than a problem with Finale.  But, I sure wish there were more industry standards in names, as that is what threw me off the most.  Here is the solution.  
 
Once I had my three instruments chosen (trumpet, bass clarinet, drums) within Finale, I had to set them up in GigaStudio:  trumpet (channel 1), bass clarinet (channel 2), and drums (channel 10).  So far, so good.
 
The most important step is the following.  If you forget it, you WILL regret it.  I went back to Finale, and clicked on the Instruments list.  Once I was there, I noticed a “B” column.  This is where you tell Finale what is over on GigaStudio.  I clicked on the “B” column related to trumpet. 
 
At this point, I should say that back over on GigaStudio, you will notice that there is a “loaded instruments” tab.  You must click on this tab to be able to SEE what “instrument number” is assigned to each instrument.  In my case, trumpet was instrument 40, bass clarinet was instrument 13, and the drum set was instrument 1. 
 
(Oh…by the way, working with drums and MIDI is a whole other topic in and of itself…what a nightmare THAT is…stay tuned.)
 
So…back on the “B” column related to the trumpet….   
 
Once I clicked on the “B” column, the “Instrument Definition” screen appeared.  Within this window, I changed the “Instrument Name” to Steely Dan Drums and set the channel to “10”.  I have found the next step critically important:  on the “Patch” field, I chose “Bank Select 32, Program Change”.  Now, this is where it got confusing to ME.  I’m sure those who have MIDI experience are laughing right now, but at least I figured it out. 
 
Once the “Bank Select 32, Program Change” has been chosen, just below that will be two fields that need filled in:  Bank Select 32 and Program Change.  I toggled back to GigaStudio so that I could see the instruments in the “loaded instruments” tab and noticed that there was a “Bank” column.  All of the instruments showed that they were on Bank “0”.  So, back in Finale, I typed “0” for “Bank Select 32”. 
 
Although for some of you it would be obvious, but for me, I couldn’t immediately figure out what “Program Change” was.  Well…that represents the “instrument number” back on GigaStudio.  So, back to GigaStudio I went, and I noticed that, as previously stated, the instrument numbers were trumpet = 40, bass clarinet = 13, and drums = 1.  So, for the trumpet, I typed in “40” in the “Program Change” field. 
 
The above process was repeated for the bass clarinet and the drums.
 
Those were the two major hurdles that I got through this weekend.  Again, had I not been able to do this, GigaStudio would not have been an option, and I would have spent a lot of money for nothing.
 
BUT…I’m still not out of the woods yet.  There are still more problems that have cropped up since I got through hurdle #2 above, and I will address these in the future.  Because of this, I cannot give a full thumbs up yet.  What I mean by this is that I am first and foremost a FINALE user.  If GigaStudio cannot play with FINALE, it is GigaStudio that will go into the dumpster…not Finale.
 
Stay tuned for more.  I will have a few words to say on samples, too.  Hopefully I’ll have that posted by today (1/19/04) or tomorrow. 
 
Stay tuned…. 


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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David Young : chambermusic
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   Posted 1/19/2004 12:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for your blow by blow discription of your workings with Gigastudio. I could have expected much the same.

There are usually ways around getting the two programs to work together, much like the challenges that I had when I first purchased the Roland sound module that I used 7 or 8 years ago for a while. Getting those channels and patches to match took a little fiddling and insight... insight that I didn't have at first.

As I once stated (here or elsewhere), as a musician I know all about "notes, measures, clefs, dynamics repeat bars, articulations, and slurs) but I am new to concepts such as "cross fading, envelopes, banks, program changes" and the like.

Gigastudio 3.0 does come with (well, at extra cost) a video tape where the software program is taught in detail (hopefully in understandable terms) that may be necessary for me to understand what I am doing. When it comes down to it, I may need to get a hands-on tutorial.

Yes, I am thinking about getting Gigastudio, but not for a little while. I will need to save up some big bucks to get a good computer as well as the program and some nice sample libraries.

I have suggested to Make Music that they work with Tascam to make the best, seemless interface between Finale and Gigastudio, because..... well, I think that this is the future of music.

Thanks again for sharing your insights.

David


David Young
 
Composer of classical-romantic style chamber and orchestral music.
 
Finale 2.4 through 2004a
PC, windows XP home, 2.4 ghz, 516 RAM

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Craig William Dayton
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Total Posts : 34
 
   Posted 1/19/2004 1:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
David...

I appreciate you asking Finale to partner to some degree with GigaStudio. Last week, I put in a similar request, even asking that they give GigaStudio's support (Chris) a free copy, so that they can get their hands around Finale and provide support for GigaStudio for Finale users, much like they do for Sonar 3 Producer users. Let's hope for the best.

You mentioned a video tape of GigaStudio. Actually, I will speak more on that in another post. But, so you know, I have purchased "GigStudio Mastery" tutorial by David Govett (first user of the product) and Kevin Phelon.

It is on 4 CDs and is rather interesting. I have it and am working my way through it. (I have an idea that it will be obsolete to a degree, once 3.0 is released...though perhaps not totally obsolete.)

I notice that I cannot find it on the GigaStudio site anymore, and had to do a Google search to find it on another retailer's site. Maybe GigaStudio is planning a new version. (I seem to have jumped into GigaStudio right at the time they are changing everything...oh well.)

Considering that it was written in 2002, perhaps the $60 retail price will come down some...maybe. You will probably want to continue waiting and watching.

More later...


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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mrterrywilliams
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   Posted 1/19/2004 5:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Craig,

I have been using Finale with Gigastudio for several years now and I think I can make life easier for you. The reason you couldn't get the sync to work with Gigastudio is that you must use the 16-bit midi driver. I use Windows 98 SE so that is no problem. But, I don't think it will work with XP or Windows 2000. That is why Finale changed your driver.

Your other problem with instruments changing when you are doing playback is a quick and simple fix. Go down to the bottom left corner of the instrument list window and uncheck "send patches before play". You don't have to do anything else. No renaming, nothing.

I can playback 64 midi channels at once using only Finale and Gigastudio. Just set up the 4 Nemesys drivers in midi setup and then name your channels 1-64. I do full band arrangements with percussion during playback.

One more thing. You do need a lot of ram when using Gigastudio. I have 512 megs, but most people try to have at least 1 meg.

Terry
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Craig William Dayton
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   Posted 1/19/2004 6:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Terry...

You are MOST welcome to this FINALE/GIGASTUDIO thread. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN HIDING. :)))

Everyone, I have another post coming up in just a few seconds, but I will defer to Terry on any of my postings, who has more experience than I have. If he says something different...go with him. I'm just a beginner.

Terry, I agree with you on the RAM issue. Even though GigaStudio speaks of how it does not use RAM alot and streams from the disks, I am finding that having as much RAM as possible is important. I have 256 MB. I loaded only three instruments and found that 46% of my RAM was gone.

So...again...Terry thank you very much for joining in on the thread. I know I'm going to be bugging you, but considering the amount of money I have spent at this point...I would be hard to turn back now. I will apologize upfront if I bug you too much. BTW, I've been known to reward those you help carry me through major problems. (Sure hope you like pizza gift certificates. But, ya gotta earn them. HA! Stay tuned...)

Thank you,

Craig


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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Craig William Dayton
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   Posted 1/19/2004 6:58 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

PART FOUR:  CHOOSING THE SAMPLES

 
(NOTE:  as I am posting this on the same day as PART THREE, I want to encourage you to go back and read PART THREE, as it is important if you expect GigaStudio and Finale to play together.)
 
Roger Dale made a post in this thread that bears repeating:  “…but at some time you have to ask yourself if you want to play the music or do you want to write music for someone else to play.”
 
I understand what he is saying.  We are, I’m guessing, for the most part not studio producers and recording console jockeys.  If we are Finale users, then we are, for the most part, composers, arrangers, and orchestrators.   Either we write for, or want to write for, LIVE musicians.  In my humble opinion, that should be our goal, i.e., to have our music played for a live audience by live musicians.
 
Thanks to Finale, we don’t have to fret and worry anymore over whether or not everything has been transposed properly and sounds close to the way we want it.  I can remember going into a recording studio in Philadelphia in the mid-70s and conducting a 21-piece orchestra of a couple of my compositions/arrangements.  I was standing before some of the greatest musicians in the world.  This was in pre-Finale days, and you can be sure I was praying that my arrangements were OK and were the way I heard them in my head and that all of the parts were transposed correctly.  Luckily everything was fine. 
 
If you only write for live musicians and you just need general MIDI sounds to hear if your arrangement is OK before you give it to the musicians, then there is no need to buy expensive samples. 
 
So, yes, writing for live musicians should be our goal.  But…that is not the only goal.
 
For example, each year, I create a Christmas CD.  It is a homemade CD, with a number of my original compositions/arrangements (with some tradition tunes tossed in).  Instead of sending Christmas cards to everyone, I send this CD, along with a short letter of greetings and well wishes.  I have received nice comments on the CDs over the years.
 
It is my goal to keep improving upon the sound quality of this CD.  I started with the basic MIDI sound, which was OK, but not really satisfying.  As time passed, I bought a Korg Triton ProX sound module (yep…it WAS expensive), and that improved the sound quality by leaps and bounds.  This would be considered hardware sampling, as I understand the terms.  I am sure your Roland-heads are probably smirking.  That’s OK.
 
I asked Korg support at the end of 2003 if they had any new samples, since it had been two years since my last purchase.  They said “no,” and suggested software sampling.  So with the same goal of improving upon the sound for my Christmas CD (and other projects), I am on this quest to determine if GigaStudio and software samples will take me a notch higher.  From what I can tell so far, I believe they will (…caveat:  I am still not fully convinced that Finale will play nicely with GigaStudio…I am waiting on a response from Finale on one problem…will let you know).
 
So, yes, we want our music played by other people…but…not always.
 
It is with this understanding that I continue on with this topic of software samples.
 
DO NOT BUY ANY SAMPLES UP FRONT!!!
 
What I mean is, if you eventually decide to buy GigaStudio, which in and of itself will be an expense (not only software but, most likely, hardware as well), it would be better to take your time and learn GigaStudio with some FREE samples, just to see if GigaStudio is really going to be something you want. 
 
There IS, however, one piece of software I suggest getting, and I alluded to it in another posting.  For GigaStudio 2.5, it is called “GigaStudio Mastery” and is a 4-CD pack video that sells for around $60.  Long-time GigaStudio guru, David Govett, and his sidekick, Kevin Phelan, teach it.  It is really quite nice.  However, keep your eyes open for a new edition for GigaStudio 3.0, though I cannot say at this point if there will be a new one for 3.0.  I feel it is useful, and I HIGHLY recommend going through it BEFORE making a lot of sample purchases.
 
I mentioned FREE samples.  Well, free is free, and so do not expect the same quality for a free sample that you would for a library of samples that would cost you money.  You are not looking for great sounds with this.  Instead, you are using the free samples to help you manage your costs while you learn GigaStudio. 
 
You can get some nice free samples at the Tim Smith’s Westgate Studios website, and I do recommend this website: www.swgames.com/westgate/free.htm
 
Or, you could head over to Northern Sounds and download some samples.  However, the contributors ask that, if you feel inclined, to make a donation to them.  If you feel the sample is worthwhile, then you can make that call.  I must add that often the links are broken on the following page.  I don’t know what’s going on there.  Perhaps the downloads were pulled but the webpage was not updated. 
 
 
If you search more on the Internet, you will probably be able to find more free samples. You do NOT need a lot.  What you need is just a few to use with GigaStudio, so that you can get the feel for the product.
 
Once you are setup with the free samples, start writing some compositions in Finale and use the GigaStudio sampler to generate the sounds.  And…when I say write some compositions, I mean write LITTLE ones:  four – eight measures.  Don’t write a full-blown arrangement, only to find that you can’t play it.  You are merely trying to learn GigaStudio and how it works with Finale.
 
After you have worked with GigaStudio, have gotten the feel for it, and it comes time to BUY samples, be careful of one thing in particular:  MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE BUYING A GIGASTUDIO FORMATED SAMPLE!!!  It would be a shame to buy a nice sounding sample, only to find out that you could not use it with GigaStudio.
 
The GigaStudio site itself will recommend some samples: www.nemesysmusic.com
 
You can either go there or go to the websites of the actual developer, or you can go to website of mass sellers who might be able to reduce the costs for you.  Use the Internet.  It’s your money.  Spend it wisely.
 
BEFORE YOU START BUYING SAMPLES, ask yourself how you write music.  Do you mostly write Big Band music?  If so, you probably don’t need to shell out money for an expensive string sample…and strings ARE expensive.  And, if you write Big Band music, do you REALLY want brass samples that are symphonic in nature.  No…you probably want more jazz-sounding brass.  You know what I mean…it’s a different blowing technique for the brass (you won’t find trumpet “screamers” in a symphonic sample library).  And, if you write mostly string and woodwind music, do you want to buy a brass sample?  Probably not.
 
Just take the time to ask yourself what you write the MOST of and start buying those samples.  If you like strings, for example, but really don’t use them much…put them on your wish list and save up your money for a purchase down the road.
 
In case you are wondering about some of the samples that I have purchased, here we go:  Peter Erskine’s “Living Drums,” Dan Dean’s “Giga Bass,” Westgate Studio’s (Tim Smith) “Woodwind Collection – Expanded Edition,” Kirk Hunter’s “Orchestral Brass – Virtuoso Series,” and the jazzy brass and sax sounds of “Chronic Horns Volume 2”.  What you have just read is over $1,000 worth of samples, and I haven’t even added the strings.
 
As you can tell, I have NOT followed the advice that I have just given you above.  So…I am the one falling on his sword, so that, perhaps, you will not make the same mistakes.
 
I mentioned that there is a problem that I am working with Finale to overcome.  If  I cannot resolve that problem…then I’ve spent a lot of money for nothing haven’t I?!  Don’t make the same mistake.
 
You will notice that I do NOT have any strings listed.  I want to buy the Garritan Orchestral Strings ($895) library, but I will not buy it until the problem that I have mention above has been resolved.  So…I AM learning from my mistakes.
 
That’s it for today.  I’ll be back, when I get a break through on the problem.  Also, I need to give you my experience with working with drums and MIDI.  THAT was a learning experience.
 
END OF PART FOUR


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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Bill Reed
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   Posted 1/19/2004 9:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, I don’t really have time to wade through all the verbiage here.  I just wanted to mention that I’m also a long time Finale/Giga user.  They work well together.  Feel free to ask any questions.
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Craig William Dayton
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   Posted 1/20/2004 9:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Bill...

I didn't mean to have you "wade through all the verbiage". As I had mentioned from the beginning of this thread, this is a diary of my new GigaStudio experience, so to speak, and is provided to help Ron and David and a few others who are considering buying GigaStudio. Since I did not see anything else on samples on the Forum when doing a search, I thought I would try to help with this thread.

But, I am glad to see people such as yourself and Terry posting GigaStudio replies now. That means that Ron and David and our other colleagues are in good hands. I'll just drop out at this point and end this thread.

Best wishes,


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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Ron.
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   Posted 1/20/2004 11:46 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have read through all the "verbiage" with great interest. I never would have found how to coordinate Finale and Gigastudio instruments by myself. Most of us are working on our own without benefit of a teacher or classroom to get through what can be highly technical, esoteric, and complex tools.
I downloaded a Cubase demo a few months ago because I heard it was so wonderful. I simply could not figure out how to use it. I felt like a two year old trying to build a computer from scratch (first you get some sand; then you melt and purify it...). (I know, I know, someone's going to tell me how simple Cubasis is.)
So, I depend on threads like this.


Ron
Finale 2004a, W98 SE

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Bill Reed
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   Posted 1/20/2004 12:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I didn’t mean to denigrate the thread, just to assure those interested in GigaStudio that it works very well with Finale.  That’s not to say that it’s simple to work everything out.
 
Perhaps the most important thing to keep in mind when considering expensive sample libraries is how much hard work is needed to use them.  Whereas the instruments in a average sound card are looped and processed so that they sound ok in every situation, with a GigaStudio (or other) library you have to program aspects of every note.  The articulation, start and stop time, dynamics, etc. all have to be done “by hand”.  Finale is capable of doing all this, but you’ll find the MIDI tool is pretty clunky and inconvenient.  That’s way some people choose to export their MIDI from Finale to a sequencer to do all this editing.
 
Sequencer’s are VERY complex.  If you can manage in Finale, I’d recommend it.
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mrterrywilliams
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   Posted 1/20/2004 4:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Craig,

Thanks for your kind remarks! Bill is one of the best at using Finale and Gigastudio. I have learned much by reading his comments. I agree with Bill that a good sequencer is probably the best way to get the most realistic sounds from Gigastudio. Also, if you are a proficient pianist (I am not!) then that is a great way to go. I do concert and marching band arrangements and I use Gigastudio like a great GM soundbank. I have found samples that give a nice sound on each of the instruments in the band. I have also layered some to get a "band" sound. By using the articulation tool in Finale, I get a pretty realistic rendition of what I am working on. It definitely is better than the new sounds in Finale 2004, but I use those when I am working on my laptop. The beauty of Gigastudio is that it will do so much. You can use it in a simple manner as I do, or you can compose and record incredibly realistic music. You can hear examples at www.northernsounds.com

Here are some more sites where you can get free giga samples. http://www.projectsam.com/freesounds.html
http://www.gtownsounds.com/

Terry
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Roger Dale
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   Posted 1/21/2004 2:04 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You should be able to compose in Finale without the aid of any computer software.  You should also be able to sail a ship.  You should also be able to plan a meal to feed many. You should be able to compose even if you have lost your hearing. 


I'm their leader.  Which way did they go?

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Bernard Super
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   Posted 1/22/2004 5:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just joined this forum - I'm a Finale user (2004) whoc just bought into Gigastudio recently and have encountered the same problems with the interface. I deeply appreciate your posting your efforts to crack this problem. Thanks - Bernard Super
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Craig William Dayton
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   Posted 1/22/2004 8:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well...


It looks like some people think that this little ole thread might be useful after all.  Since I left you in the very capable hands of Terry and Mr. Bill, I have had some MAJOR breakthroughs in my experience with Finale and GigaStudio.  Bernard...any of those notes of yours dropping out?  They don't drop out on me anymore.


If I return to posting on this thread, I promise to keep the postings short.  smilewinkgrin   In any event, Terry and Bill definately know their stuff.  Me...I'm just an ole guy turning 54 on the 23rd.  What do I know?  :p


Best wishes,



Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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Craig William Dayton
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   Posted 1/27/2004 11:41 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bernard....here is the second thread. I'll go back to your email and respond now. Best of luck to you.

Craig


Craig Dayton
 
"Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe it can achieve." - Napoleon Hill

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