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Peter Morris
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   Posted 3/4/2004 3:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
I fear posting a title like this since I have often seen people make statements about bugs which later turn out to be lack of understanding.  I am therefore very careful in what I say below.
 
I have seldom seen such a dreadful release.  Let me take just one area - Simple entry.
 
Enter in Scroll mode and keep entering until the current screen is full and as soon as the caret moves to the next screen you can't add an accidental to the previous note using + or - (I reported this previously but they've clearly ignored this significant usability bug).
 
Try adding an accidental over a screen change in scroll mode and you can't get rid of it again - pressing N instead of +/- changes only the current note and then goes back to the previous accidental (and I'm not talking about notes affected by key signature - I experimented with Cb in C major)
 
Pressing T (for Tie) behaves erratically in a similar scenario. Instead of tying the previous note to the current, it turns on tie mode permanently.
 
Having entered accidentals as above, start a new document and it remembers that you'd previously entered a sharp and newly entered notes take account of what you did in the previous work.  How stupid is that? New document = refresh of internal variables. Have the programmers not heard of simple conventions of cold and warm start?
 
Or even testing?
 
I can't go on. I'm too angry.
 
MakeMusic, who do you think we are? An irritation that might eventually go away?
 
I work at a University and we're putting in 60 new music workstations in August.  Despite the fact that the we lecturers mainly use Finale (or at least we do at the moment), we are putting in 60 Sibelius licences.  Why? Finale suffers from awful quality assurance, poor commitment to customers, deflection from core product and so on.
 
MakeMusic, you have blown it this time.  Perhaps 25 grand in lost licences might make you listen.
 


Win XP, Finale 2004b (and wish I hadn't)

Post Edited (Peter Morris) : 3/4/2004 8:50:31 AM GMT

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Ron.
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   Posted 3/4/2004 6:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How's your playback Peter? It's been totally destroyed on my machine with 2004B. You wouldn't believe the horrible noise I get instead of music! I can't believe it after the vast improvement in sound we got with 2004 to get nothing but sreeches and static. What "musical" notes I can hear are awful--violins sound like $1.00 toys made with plastic.

I've asked Tech support how to uninstall B. If I don't hear back soon, I will simply re-install 2004. Like you, I am too busy to screw around. I have scores to get to musicians.

I will never again upgrade or install a patch without first reading these forums for months to determine what the problems are. Sorry to make the rest of you test subjects, but I can't afford this sort of nonsense.

I feel completely let down--after promoting Finale so heavily to friends in the business and to newcomers here on these forums.


Ron
Finale 2004a, XP Pro // P4, 2.6 GHz, 2 Gb RAM, SB Audigy
Car: Prius
Beer: Anything but American
First Concert: June 6, 2004

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Peter Morris
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   Posted 3/4/2004 7:27 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Ron,
 
I read your other post and tried out a few things. Sound is still OK.  I tried both the Finale Soft Synth and my sound card.  Both behave now as they used to in 2004A.
 
Now that I'm not so angry, I have a few open questions.
 
* Have we ever had a Finale release that fixed so many bugs (approx 200)?
 
* Why on earth were all those bugs there in a production release in the first place?
 
* Has QA always been this bad?
 
* Has the development manager not heard of Philip Crosby's seminal work "Quality is Free"?
 
* Why is the new feature list so poor? (I know the answer to that one - the bug list was too extensive for the developers to do any new work).
 
The first person who gives me "it's a complicated program" will get the full force of my Mancunian wrath ;-)
 
No - I shall try to restrain myself with fellow users.  It's the management of MM that needs a rocket.  It's clearly the case that QA has been neglected.  The programmers can only work within the environment they are set.  Management set that environment within the pverall priorities and something is dreadfully wrong at the moment.
 
I used to be Director of IT for a large UK Insurance company and I understand the issues of balancing strategic demands.  I would have been sacked - and deserved it - if I ever treated my customers as badly as we are being treated at the moment.
 
What on earth can we do to improve things?


Win XP, Finale 2004b (and wish I hadn't)

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Ron.
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   Posted 3/4/2004 8:39 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Glad your sound is okay. In my case, upgrading to B was the ONLY change I had made. 10 minutes before the upgrade everything was fine, afterwards: disaster.

I used to head up a team of developers too and I know about the problems of having a development roadmap on one hand and having marketing people promising the moon to clients and then expecting the developers to deliver--without ever checking to find out if what they were promising was within the development plan--or even technically possible. Senior management would treat the whole situation like it was some sort of adversary system and would only listen to the people who made the best political speeches. Gee, I'm glad I don't do that anymore.

Meanwhile, I guess that tonight I start the reinstall process unless someone can explain what the B release did to my sound system and has a quick fix.


Ron
Finale 2004a, XP Pro // P4, 2.6 GHz, 2 Gb RAM, SB Audigy
Car: Prius
Beer: Anything but American
First Concert: June 6, 2004

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Fred G. Unn
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   Posted 3/4/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ron,
I had a similar problem in 2004a. Someone at tech support suggested it could be a compatibility issue with the HT technology in my processor. He suggested right-clicking on Finale.exe, selecting Properties/Compatibility and running Finale in a compatibility mode. Although it made no difference what I selected and the problem has now mysteriously vanished without using compatibility mode, it might be worth a try.
Fred
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Ron.
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   Posted 3/4/2004 11:57 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks Fred,
I suppose upgrade to 2004b might have triggered something that was dormant in 2004a. ??? I'll give your suggestion a try tonight before I start reinstalling. I'll let you know. I had seen the post about compatibility mode, but becasue I had no problems before the B update I had not paid it much attention.


Ron
Finale 2004a, XP Pro // P4, 2.6 GHz, 2 Gb RAM, SB Audigy
Car: Prius
Beer: Anything but American
First Concert: June 6, 2004

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cliffdzihner
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   Posted 3/4/2004 2:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>Pressing T (for Tie) behaves erratically in a similar scenario. Instead of tying the previous note to the current, it turns on tie mode permanently.
 
If you have an existing note selected, it adds a tie to this note. If you do not have a note selected, it selects the tie on the palette. Feels like clear design to me.
 
The only other issue in your email is Simple Entry accidental issues. I find the post subject a bit overstated for this one area. I certainly agree with all you say on this, though.
 
>we are putting in 60 Sibelius licences.  Why? Finale suffers from awful quality assurance
 
Let us know how much better Sibelius handles accidental entry and modification, it addition to the quality of its overall bug free nature.

Post Edited (cliffdzihner) : 3/4/2004 7:17:14 PM GMT

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Peter Morris
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   Posted 3/5/2004 3:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry, Cliff, but you miss my point. Simple entry is wrongly dropping the selection when it moves on a page. It shouldn't do that. As you say, the Tie command then turns on Tie mode. So, if you want to apply a tie to the previous note, you have to go back a measure, reselect the note and then tie. It's a bug. No two ways about it.

As for Sibelius, well, we wouldn't go into it blind - credit us with some sense. Who do you think we are? MM QA department? ;o) You won't be surprised to know that the students have been using Sibelius for some time while the lecturers have preferred working with Finale. Sibelius has never had the kind of quality problems (nor Mac delays) that are found in Finale. Sure, I expect some problems since the development budget ain't unlimited and we don't pay 2k as for Maya or 3D Studio. Anyway, the die is cast. Sibelius get the dosh and MakeMusic do not. I don't do this to punish the wrongdoers, I do it to give my students the best chance of producing music without the complications of workarounds and bug-rage.

As for other problems, well, these were the ones I found in the first 10 minutes of using Finale 2004b. I don't call what I did a test but I defy anybody who had done any of the 2004b testing not to have found them. They simply did not do their job well.


Win XP, Finale 2004b (and wish I hadn't)

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Ron.
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   Posted 3/5/2004 5:25 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It turns out my sound problems were not caused by the "B" version. They are a result of hyper-threading--and I had to set Finale to run in compatability mode. However, I do not understand how I was able to run with absolutely no problems under 2004a and it was only when I upgraded to 2004b that my sound system fell apart. One of life's mysteries.

However, given the number of people reporting similar problems you would think it would be something that MM would be very anxious to address--and quickly. More and more people are going to run into this problem as they upgrade their computers. I don't like being treated as a test subject.


Ron
Finale 2004a, XP Pro // P4, 2.6 GHz, 2 Gb RAM, SB Audigy
Car: Prius
Beer: Anything but American
First Concert: June 6, 2004

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dan1937
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   Posted 3/5/2004 9:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MakeMusic should take their cue from companies who take responsibility for their mistakes, and just say, "it's our fault, we're sorry, and we WILL fix it in 2004c, not as an upgrade." I personally won't buy another upgrade until I know it's been fixed. 2003b works fine for me, and although I'll miss the soft synth, I CAN do without it.

Dan mad


Dan Borlawsky Music Educator/Composer/Arranger/Performer

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dex16
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   Posted 3/5/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not to jump on the bashing bandwagon. But I'm using Finale 2001b and have no plans on upgrading what so ever. It works fine for me and have few problems. Printing is an issue but that is due to my printer and not the program itself.
rolleyes cool 
My question is do all the "new improvements" really help the creative side of writing music? I'm from the old school of sitting down with blank staff paper and writing in pencil. The great thing about Finale is that you can hear your composition instantly. But then again if you have musicians at your disposal it really doesn't matter does it?
Just my two cents.




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Gareth Green
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   Posted 3/5/2004 10:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
dex16 said...
My question is do all the "new improvements" really help the creative side of writing music?


They may not help with the purely creative aspect, but they sure as hell help with the practical drudgery of orchestrating, score-writing, and the creation of legible parts once you have dreamed up your masterpiece.
 
I'm certainly not going to be an apologist for MM and attempt to argue with all the people who are rightly upset over the QA issues. I will say however that, in the short time that I've been using 2004, apart from anything else the new automatic positioning functions for note & measure expressions have almost justified the upgrade cost alone, in terms of time saved having to manually reposition.
 
G.


 
Gareth J. Green
 
Fin2003a
Fin2004a (just)
WinME
 
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"

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cliffdzihner
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   Posted 3/5/2004 10:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dan says-

>it's our fault, we're sorry, and we WILL fix it in 2004c

Fix what? Could we be a bit more specific? Are we talking about Simple Entry across page breaks? Audio problems that Finale probably has no control over?
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Zuill
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   Posted 3/5/2004 10:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Check out some of the comments in this thread:

http://www.finalemusic.com/forum/?f=5&m=75272

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

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Gareth Green
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   Posted 3/5/2004 10:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interestingly, some time ago I happened to be in communication with a marketing representative from Sibelius (I won't bother going into why; it was to do with an unrelated discussion on another forum, nothing to do specifically with notation). Now, I have no comment to make about this, but, amongst other (mostly friendly) points of contention, he was absolutely adamant that JUNE_PANIC was obviously a MakeMusic employee operating covertly on the forum...............


G.



 
Gareth J. Green
 
Fin2003a
Fin2004a (just)
WinME
 
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"

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Matthew Hindson
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   Posted 3/5/2004 5:25 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Gareth Green said...
Interestingly, some time ago I happened to be in communication with a marketing representative from Sibelius (I won't bother going into why; it was to do with an unrelated discussion on another forum, nothing to do specifically with notation). Now, I have no comment to make about this, but, amongst other (mostly friendly) points of contention, he was absolutely adamant that JUNE_PANIC was obviously a MakeMusic employee operating covertly on the forum...............

<br /><br />
G.

<br /><br />


Yeah, well, there have always been Sibelius reps on all the Finale lists, and probably vice-versa. Stands to reason, really.

If we're getting into conspiracy theories, who's to say that some of those people bagging out the Finale 2004b release aren't Sibelius employees in disguise?
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Pete Sawchuk
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   Posted 3/5/2004 5:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lots of frustration built up here, & understandably, it continues to grow rather than dissipate. I don't have any quick-fix magic wand to wave, but here's a suggestion that I feel could do the most good in the somewhat longer term: anyone who is 1] vitally interested in making Finale as good as it can be, 2] has the depth of knowledge I see exhibited by so many who post on these forums, 3] has the time, and 4] either has a 2nd "non-mission critical" computer or a tolerance for some instability on his or her setup...please please please...volunteer to BETA TEST. If we really want to turn this situation around, this is the "something more" that many of us with a vision for what this program can become could & should do.

I'm sure an email to either [email protected] or [email protected] can get anyone who'd like to sign on pointed in the right direction.


Pete Sawchuk
Finale 2004a in Mac OSX 10.3.2
PowerMac G4 Dual 867Mhz, 1 Gb RAM
23" Apple Cinema Display, 32Mb VRAM
Edirol PCR-30 Keyboard Controller w/ built-in USB interface

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Zuill
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   Posted 3/5/2004 5:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have a better idea than beta testing, because I did that and found it to be a not very productive venture, the way it was done. My original idea about the users banding together and buying the company didn't seem to go too far. But that would give us the greatest control. The other suggestion is to let those of us who really want to see the thing done arrange to have our own programmer friends (or those who are programmers do it themselves), and have Make Music give them access to the program to help resolve the problems. I think with many brilliant minds working together, the product can only get better. I think there is a pride issue going on here, and an unwillingness to admit the problems. A full admission and acknowledgement on the part of MakeMusic, along with a willingness to seek real solutions would help greatly.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2004a, Win 2000 or XP

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Lance Handsome
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   Posted 3/5/2004 6:13 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm trying 2004b now and am surprised to report that the softsynth playback is better--I can hear voices not previously audible AND the
thing doesn't drop notes out left and right like the A version. Go figyah.


Ken Rubin "Score till you're sore and can score no more".

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JUNE_PANIC
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   Posted 3/5/2004 8:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hmmmmm…..employee?
Does Beta Tester count?  Cuz if so, we have quite a few MakeMusic “employees” on here.  Interesting accusation though.   I am just confused as to why my name would come up at all in a conversation between you and a Sibelius marketer.
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Gareth Green
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   Posted 3/5/2004 8:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
JUNE_PANIC said...
Hmmmmm…..employee?
Does Beta Tester count?  Cuz if so, we have quite a few MakeMusic “employees” on here.  Interesting accusation though.   I am just confused as to why my name would come up at all in a conversation between you and a Sibelius marketer.
 
Benefits of having an 'open' forum. He was obviously trawling this forum, and reached his own conclusion. Like I said, I'm not expressing an opinion either way. As far as I know, just a coincidence that the same guy happened to post on another forum that I use. Personally, I'm not into conspiracy theories.
 
G.


 
Gareth J. Green
 
Fin2003a
Fin2004a (just)
WinME
 
"Trumpet players have no use for musicianship; it's too much like having a conscience"

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jeskola
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   Posted 3/6/2004 11:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, reading all these posts about how shockingly bad the 2004B is, make quite happy to have gotten this (attached) message upon updating the .exe file.
 
 
J Eskola


WinXP/Fin2004a


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wpgsux
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   Posted 3/8/2004 5:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
After installing the 2004b update my toolbars go all over the place when I minimize Finale. 
Before I installed the update that never happened on my laptop but happened quite often on my
computer at work. I am aware of the work-around - just frustrated that they wouldn't fix a problem
that affects so many users.


Finale 2004b.r1 , Windows XP Home, P4 1.7, 500 MB RAM Laptop
 

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Snorlax
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   Posted 3/8/2004 6:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
What's the workaround?
Don't minimize Finale?
Jim


Jim Williams
 Indianapolis Brass Choir
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WinFin 2004a & 2002, TGTools 2.26, P-IV portable 2.4 gHz, XP Pro, 1gb RAM, 80gb HDD storage (2x40), Garritan Personal Orchestra, Besson Sovereign & Holton euphoniums, Guinness (I'm too much of a cretin for Scotch), briefs.

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wpgsux
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   Posted 3/8/2004 6:09 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There are a few fixes here:
http://www.finalemusic.com/forum/?f=5&m=73721&g=74904#m74904


Finale 2004b.r1 , Windows XP Home, P4 1.7, 500 MB RAM Laptop
 

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