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Mark Stringer
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 532

Posted 10/20/2004 6:35 AM (GMT -6)

I have a piece where there is a consistent tuplet 5 eighths to every three (5:3) within 4/4. This obviously means the tuplet is going to "overhang" each barline (3+3+2/1+3+3+1/2+ etc., etc.). How do I input this, especially to prepare for Patterson's cross-barline beaming plug-in?
Thanks,
Mark

Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 10/20/2004 11:06 AM (GMT -6)

How about this layout?

Peter

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5against3.mus 6KB (application/octet-stream)

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5against3.pdf 29KB (application/pdf)

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Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 10/20/2004 1:12 PM (GMT -6)

It's do-able, but takes time and a bit of trickery. See attached.

Zuill

P.S.: I forgot to show them as 5:3. I changed the attached files.

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004b, 2005, Win 2000 or XP

Post Edited (Zuill) : 10/20/2004 6:26:38 PM GMT

File Attachment :
5 to 3 Experiment 2.MUS 63KB (application/octet-stream)

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5 to 3 Experiment 2.pdf 16KB (application/pdf)

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Mark Stringer
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 532

Posted 10/20/2004 3:08 PM (GMT -6)

Thanks, Zuill, that looks good; how did you do it, though??

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 10/20/2004 4:46 PM (GMT -6)

As Will Rogers used to say (this is a paraphrase, I'm sure), "There are two things in life I don't want to know about: What goes into making laws, and what goes into making hot dogs." I will add a third: what goes into making 5:3 over barlines.

I'll think about how to explain it and get back. Doing it is easier than trying to explain it.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004b, 2005, Win 2000 or XP

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 10/20/2004 7:01 PM (GMT -6)

I don't know if this attached file will help. The hardest step is entering the 5:3 groups in voice 2. It wants to keep jumping to the next measure, so it will take persistence and patience to accomplish it. Hang in there. If this is what you want it to look like and playback correctly, it's one way I know works. But it is tricky. personally, reading beams across barlines is tough. Following a conductor beating in 4/4 and playing this rhythm, to me, would be nearly impossible. But it can be notated.

Note: To enter notes in Voice two, press the ' key. v2 shows in the corner of the box. Launch 1 group of 5 from each dotted quarter. This is the most confusing part of the procedure.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004b, 2005, Win 2000 or XP

Post Edited (Zuill) : 10/21/2004 12:05:08 AM GMT

File Attachment :
5 to 3 Experiment 2 Demo.pdf 52KB (application/pdf)

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File Attachment :
5 to 3 Experiment 2 Demo.MUS 69KB (application/octet-stream)

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Peter Thomsen
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2000
Total Posts : 8331

Posted 10/21/2004 1:14 AM (GMT -6)

Usually when a tuplet note extends across a barline, it is notated as two notes tied together, in order to show where the barline divides the note.

In this particular case, however, the note division is a bit complicated: 1/3 of the value on one side of the barline, and 2/3 of the value on the other side of the barline.
You might prefer, not to subdivide the note across the barline, as shown in Zuills example.

Since the note isn't subdivided, it might be better to use an alternative barline, e. g. a dashed barline (or Mensurstriche).
Every third barline can be left as normal, since it isn't crossed by a tuplet.

See the attached example.

Peter

File Attachment :
5to3Experiment.MUS 64KB (application/octet-stream)

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File Attachment :
5to3Experiment.pdf 31KB (application/pdf)

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Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 10/21/2004 1:55 AM (GMT -6)

I finally mastered the technique of doing it without needing to attach it to voice 1.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004b, 2005, Win 2000 or XP

File Attachment :
5 to 3 Experiment 3.MUS 63KB (application/octet-stream)

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File Attachment :
5 to 3 Experiment 3.pdf 19KB (application/pdf)

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Mark Stringer
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 532

Posted 10/21/2004 2:28 AM (GMT -6)

I'm feeling very stupid, Zuill; I'm trying to see what steps you took to produce this, especially the last one. The Voice 2 entry seems as if you're entering a basic rhythm base in voice 1, then doing something in maybe voice 2 (the second staff) leaving extra notes in each bar, making tuplets out of them and then somehow dragging the spacing over across the hidden eights in the next, but since everything appears as black layer 1 without any layer 2 when I open this file, I'm guessing completely. Can I bother you for a step-by-step of either version? Sorry for being so slow-witted.

Zuill
"The Troll"

Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 29077

Posted 10/21/2004 9:55 AM (GMT -6)

No. Voice 1 and 2 are both on the lower staff. I just set up the upper staff as a visual guide to make sure I was entering the notes properly on the lower staff. I now can do it in layer 1 and don't need the upper staff (my training wheels) any more.

We can try it in Simple entry. Using the MIDI keyboard has a bit of a problem when entering more than the 4 beats in the bar, so let's do it with the mouse.

1. Turn off check for extra notes.
2. Ahead of time, place a single eighth rest in measure 2 and quarter rest in measure 3.
3. Select eighth note in Simple entry.
4. Click the first eighth note in measure 1.
5. Press Alt-9 and set 5 8ths in 3 8ths.
6. Check the box to make this the default (that's just for this document and can be changed later if needed).
7. Click the rest of the first 5, then the second 5 (don't worry about beaming now).
8. When you enter the 3rd 5, notes will go past the barline, but they are still in this measure. Make sure you click to the left of ther barline.
9. You may want to use special tools>note position to drag these notes over so you can see where the rest in bar two is (be sure to click the actual bar where the notes are to get their handles--not the bar where it looks like they are).
10. Click the 3 sets of 5 into bar 2. Follow the same idea for repositioning the last group notes.
11. Finish with bar 3 (2 groups).
12. Hide the 2 rests (I did it in Speedy by pressin H on the rest)
13.In Speedy, go through the measures and use the / key to beam or unbeam the notes into even groups of 5. Brackets will disappear as soon as nptes are beamed properly.

I hope I described the steps properly. Sometimes it's easier to do it than to describe it.

Zuill

"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Finale 2004b, 2005, Win 2000 or XP

Mark Stringer
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 1999
Total Posts : 532

Posted 10/21/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6)

Thanks so much for taking the time to work this out and explain it so clearly! I was completely lost and appreciate the input.
Mark

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