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Scot H-W
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   Posted 2/7/2006 2:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Anyone know of an easier way to make dashed (editorial) hairpins in finale other than making a custom shape expression? It seems obsurd that you can't just choose to dash a smart shape hairpin. We do a lot of editorial indications in our publications, and dashed hairpins have made it hard for us to want to fully embrace finale. (I personally do, most of the time, our company, not so much). Any advice is appreciated, including better methods for making custom shape expressions. (that editor is a pain).

-Shw


Scot Hanna-Weir
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 2/7/2006 2:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would use the dashed Smart Shape line - make a custom line having the thickness, dash length and space length you want. Use 2 of them to make a wedge. All you have to do is enter 1 into the score and adjust it as fine as a gnat's whisker. Then use Mass Edit > Copy Measure Items > Smart Shapes to copy to additional locations. You'll have to adjust length on each one, but make sure you press "shift" when you drag the handle to keep the shape horizontal.

N.
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Scot H-W
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   Posted 2/7/2006 3:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, talking to my colleague we did it that way in one of our volumes. It's just kind of a shame that it's not built in. I think you're right about using two dashed lines though...using the smart shape I've always had sketchy results

-shw


Scot Hanna-Weir
Music Engraver
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Zuill
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   Posted 2/7/2006 4:22 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
An easier but not totally flexible alternative is to create a shape expression. You can create the hairpin so that it is already a wedge and stretchable, as well as adjustable in its opening.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
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Scot H-W
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   Posted 2/7/2006 5:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm assuming still as two separate lines though, as if you use the multi-line tool, it creates uneven dashing. I found it hard to use the shape expression and to get consistently even dashing that aligned vertically.

-shw


Scot Hanna-Weir
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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 2/7/2006 7:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I'm not sure of the exact requirements, but here's a sample shot of a shape expression. A dashed hairpin as a smart shape would be nice, but this would do without that option.

Zuill

 

P.S.: If you double-click on the expression handle, then double click in the expression field (outlined area), you get the endpoint handles. You can fine tune the length of each part, and even angle the hairpin.



"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

Post Edited (Zuill) : 2/7/2006 6:35:42 PM (GMT-6)


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rpmseattle
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   Posted 8/22/2014 11:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Finale colleagues,

Hopefully, you will find this approach to be straightforward, fast, and precise:

www.rpmseattle.com/of_note/finale-dashed-dotted-hairpins-via-graphic-overlay/

Best wishes,
Robert


Finale 2014, 2012, 2011 | Mac Pro 8 Core Xeon | iMac | OSX
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 8/22/2014 12:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
An alternative might be to edit the page in Illustrator afterwards. You can easily automate the separation of PDFs into single pages and the subsequent recombining.


"This is me helping."

Finale 2014c, 2012 MacMini; 2012 MacBook Pro (10.9.4)
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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 8/22/2014 2:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There seems to be many users who have asked for dashed slurs (with tapered tips). Could it be both dashed slurs and dashed hairpins could be implemented at the same time? Of course, when/if ever that will be, who knows?

Robert, your solution is very ingenious. I would hesitate to use it, though. I'd be concerned that files opened at a later date would be messed up. The Finale Graphics tool has had its share of problems in recent versions, and I don't trust it. So far as using Illustrator, dashed slurs and hairpins are not complicated contemporary notation and should be available natively in Finale. From my lips to God's ears, I guess.

N.


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thomasmith
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   Posted 8/22/2014 2:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Scott H-W
I know this is side stepping the original question, but why not consider bracketed, solid-line hairpins or ones with parentheses?
I've used both for editorial hairpins. IMHO they look better than dashed ones, too.
Just my two cents


Thomas Smith
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Mike Rosen
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   Posted 8/22/2014 3:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
thomasmith said...
Scott H-W
I know this is side stepping the original question, but why not consider bracketed, solid-line hairpins or ones with parentheses?
I've used both for editorial hairpins. IMHO they look better than dashed ones, too.
Just my two cents


Thomas, Scott H-W's question is from 2006. I doubt he's still looking for an answer! freaked freaked



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Zuill
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   Posted 8/22/2014 3:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Last seen: Feb 8, 2006. I doubt he's checking back for responses to this question.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win XP SP3, 2011b Win 7 64bit, 2012a Bought and Paid For (Hopefully soon 2012b with some of the MAJOR BUGS fixed--well, now with 2012b and some of the bugs are fixed) 2012c, with some bug fixes. 2014c at present.
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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 8/22/2014 4:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
N. Grossingink said...
There seems to be many users who have asked for dashed slurs (with tapered tips). Could it be both dashed slurs and dashed hairpins could be implemented at the same time? Of course, when/if ever that will be, who knows?



I agree completely!
This post is from 2006 and it is important to have these enchantments available soon.
I really need more engraving improvements rather than the sound quality.

The dashed slur looks really bad. This is important.

Slurs: I am not sure why Finale has the infinite tip ending. In the music literature there is no a such ending. However, when you use European template you get tip size. When I see a score with these infinite tip endings, it sticks in my eyes. I know you can change it but I 'protest' here because it forces to be a standard. Also there is no a printer that can print 0 tip, and what we get is some dashes on the tips..
Furthermore, the slurs must be enchanted more. More nodes must be added to allow creation of flat slurs. The flat slurs are the standard engraving technique. It is so obvious when a slur is somewhat longer and you get a curve instead of line. With a multiple staves piece these curved slurs take more vertical space than needed, and of course they look not good. SCORE has very beautiful slurs and it allows flat slurs.

So:
- editorial smart shapes, dashed
- no infinite slur tip (0) by default
- flat slurs (more nodes)
- hairpins with zeros (al/dal niente)
- smart shapes with parentheses (automatic)

Thank you. O


Finale 2011c, OS X 10.6.8

Post Edited (OCTO.) : 8/22/2014 3:25:47 PM (GMT-5)

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thomasmith
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   Posted 8/22/2014 4:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Doh! damn time warp!
But some people were talking about it today, so doesn't that make it relevant again?

So as long we're here, Mike, et al. what do you think of just using brackets or parentheses? dashed hairpins look kinda junky to me, just sayin


Thomas Smith
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Peter West
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   Posted 8/22/2014 5:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm catching up on this one late in the day, but I agree totally with Wiggy: set the music normally, then when you get to the fail edit stages, make the edit in Illustrator. I has much more controllable dash and line setting parameters, and you may find other edits that are easy in Illustrator too.


Peter
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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 8/23/2014 2:44 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter West said...
I'm catching up on this one late in the day, but I agree totally with Wiggy: set the music normally, then when you get to the fail edit stages, make the edit in Illustrator.


While I completely agree that it can be a good approach, this only proves that Finale lacks hi-q demanding publishing requests. Some people can't afford one software more for engraving, of double price.

I use InDesign for the final output. Smart pagination, footnotes, vertical texts, open type possibilities, just to name a few. If I now need the Illustrator I feel it a bit overkill.

O.


Finale 2011c, OS X 10.6.8

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 8/23/2014 3:22 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OCTO. said...
I use InDesign for the final output. Smart pagination, footnotes, vertical texts, open type possibilities, just to name a few. If I now need the Illustrator I feel it a bit overkill.

Well, you can do all of that, except for pagination, in Illustrator, too. And Finale is pretty good for pagination in any case. I frequently compile PDFs of different sections from different Finale documents, and getting consecutive numbers is quick and easy.

I agree that Finale should have dashed hairpins and improved dashed slurs. (Though most editorial dynamics are ignored by conductors, in my experience!)


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Wess
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   Posted 8/23/2014 12:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OCTO. said...

Furthermore, the slurs must be enchanted more. More nodes must be added to allow creation of flat slurs. The flat slurs are the standard engraving technique. It is so obvious when a slur is somewhat longer and you get a curve instead of line. With a multiple staves piece these curved slurs take more vertical space than needed, and of course they look not good. SCORE has very beautiful slurs and it allows flat slurs.


The flat slurs are really hardly needed.
Many years ago I were asked from EU publisher to solve this problem. There are 3 possibilities so far, that I can maintain flat slurs with.
01. The best one – using "Illustrator".
02. Finale – with 2 modified slurs as a beginning and ending plus a flat line(s) in the middle. Once I have already shown this how it works.
03. Font – the fastest way. I prepared a set of ½ slurs (pretty long ones) and the same applies for the endings.
For a time being, (since Finale does not support such shapes) every one with essential skills of font generating can do this.
The necessary softwares are Illustrator and some font editor.

Here how it looks like.
As you can see on the screen shot from Finale, some edges appear in the middle of the line on this sample.
It is because of the overlapping small rectangles used for the flat part of the slur. For such propose I used custom horizontal smart shape – for the beginning (left part of the slur), middle (line or character from the font – in this case "font") and right (ending part of the slur).
Unfortunately, this method is not free from issues. Even that I prepared very precise FAT, the bounding box, when using selection tool, is too big and it makes the work not very pleasant when post editing is needed.

There some soft edges (because of the anti-aliasing filter of the OS) seen only on Finale screen shot, but if you open the file in Illustrator or print it – the middle flat line is absolutely perfect.
The second screen shot represents the selected with "Illustrators text tool" numbers of small overlapped rectangles. No fakes or modification are made – the PhotoShop was used only to make red boxes visible and the values inside them.
The CMYK as you can see is 100% K (100% black). To reach this values, the initial PDF was saved as monochrome PS File (Acrobat Pro) and one more time "distilled" trough Adobe distiller.

I know that the resolution is rather big (taken form 27"iMAC), but when seen on 100% everything looks clear.






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________________________________________
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OCTO.
The radical answers.



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   Posted 8/24/2014 1:22 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Among many kings on the forum, Wess is one of the kings!

I remember we discussed already this issue, but your approach with AI is new.
I love it, I will definitely test it now.

Best, O.


Finale 2011c, OS X 10.6.8

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N. Grossingink
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   Posted 8/24/2014 2:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OCTO. said...
Among many kings on the forum, Wess is one of the kings!


You are absolutely right!

The earlier example graphics Wess posted show a very fine attention to detail. Very consistent placement and alignment. Tuplet numbers centered perfectly. Solo bow for Wess!

N.


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Paul W. Palm
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   Posted 10/3/2014 2:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The issues remain relevant, since before 2006 and up until today (Finale 2014c). A setting for square/infinite hairpin ends and dashed hairpins are both desperately needed. No workarounds or secondary applications; options and features directly *in* Finale (2014d? 2015?).

Stop working so hard on playback and focus on typesetting for a cycle.
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Wess
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   Posted 10/4/2014 2:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi there,

here is a sample, that most probably could help.

Both dashed hair pins (cresc. and dim.) are made within the graphic editor of "Expression tool".
They are combination of two dashed lines. Each of them in cresc. and dim. art starts from the origin, however the dim. version is slightly moved to the right in order to present "0" point at the place you need to position it.

Unfortunately, you must be wormed, that "expanding" (with double click) does not work properly well as expected and as it does work in ALL other graphic software ever known, except in Finale traditionally.

Any touch on one of its 8 handles (after double klick) results unexpected "grown up" issue in other direction too.
Well, it could be corrected, but that is not the point.
All the time you use this samples, you need to work only with the s. c. meta tools, because one and the same shape could not be used as a different size on different places. Using meta tool copies the shape.

It this file "F" is assigned to "cresc". and "G" for "dim".

Just for the sport: I made 2 more attempts to use "polygon" and "multiline tool" within graphic editor – forget it. It does not work when you need to expand.


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________________________________________
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