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diz
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   Posted 2/24/2006 9:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hullo,

I'm preparing an Urtext edition of a major work (opera). It will have annotations (think footnotes) where alternative notes are indicated or ambiguous notes are implied (with references to their source(s) etc).

My initial problem concerns dashed ties ... while I find Finale handles dashed slurs quite obviously, I can't work out how to use a dashed tie. These are generally used when an engraver indicates that this is the way the instrument should approach the playing of two (or more adjacent) notes based on surrounding parts.

Any ideas about dashed ties would be appreciated.

kind regards
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MarcvdM
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   Posted 2/25/2006 4:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello Diz,

The way I solve it is by replacing the tie by a dashed slur, not attached to notes but to measure.
Hold the shift key when putting the slur to keep it horizontal, position and flatten it to make it look like a tie.
Some work, but looks o.k.

cheers, Marc
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Peter West
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   Posted 2/25/2006 5:09 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree with Marc.

It is the only way to get the curve, the shading and the dashed effect.

Be aware though thet the dash settings in smart shapes options are the ones that apply. If you want to make the dash settings for (eg) 8vas different (or independent, ie the same for now, but with the option of changing one but not the other later) then you will need to make a custom smart shape for the octava, as you can not make custom smart shaped slurs...


...unless anyone knows different.


Peter
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ephraim
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   Posted 2/27/2006 7:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Could I ask what opera you're doing, just out of curiousity? I engraved three Gilbert and Sullivan operas for Dover a few years back, which although were not full-dress critical editions, were pretty close. Or, do you think someone might try to beat you to the punch if you announce it beforehand?


ephraim hammett jones MusicScribe

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diz
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   Posted 2/27/2006 7:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I most certainly have NO intention of disclosing the work, sorry.

As to the Dover editions of Sullivan's operas ... I'm assuming you were responsible for The Mikado, Pirates of Penzance and HMS Pinafore. If so, bravo, very nice. I disagree with you about making all the clarinet parts B-flat (the cornets are a different proposition as the Cornet in A is now basically obsolete)- but that's personal
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ephraim
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   Posted 2/27/2006 11:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The decision about the clarinets was an interesting one. G & S operas are performed primarily by semi pro and amature groups and even high school and community groups. We decided to make the clarinets and cornets in Bb and horns in F for this reason. We changed our minds later and decided to include both Bb parts and Bb/A clarinet parts with the rental parts. Community groups generally don't schedule too many Boris Gudanovs or Traviatas or Ring cycles, but they sure do a lot of Pinafores and Fledermauses. However, it is rare for professional groups to perform G&S, hence our decision.

By the way, I don't think there was ever actually an A cornet. I think it was just some sort of attachment or extension or something to the Bb cornet.


ephraim hammett jones MusicScribe

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diz
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   Posted 3/2/2006 5:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ephraim ... thanks. Actually what I should have said was "bravo". I own copies of your Dover G&S scores, they are quite scholarly and beautifully designed. Will you be adding future works (Princess Ida, Iolanthe, Gondoliers seem to be the next most popular).
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ephraim
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   Posted 3/3/2006 7:49 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We wanted to do Iolanthe next, but when we tried to get photocopies of the autograph we ran into roadblocks. We have the autographs for Patience, Trial by Jury, Gondoliers and Yeomen of the Guard (I think Princess Ida is also unavailable, for us anyway) which we will work on when I find the time to engrave them. When Mikado was first released we received very harsh critisism from the scholarly community who dismissed our efforts as not thorough enough, even though all of our full scores, vocal scores and parts were eventually found to be highly accurate as far as the music, libretto and lyrics are concerned. This is what we set out to do anyway, rather than a full-blown critical edition. I think there is a place for both approaches, especially considering that the scholarly editions of some full scores run into hundreds of dollars, whereas ours are less than twenty.


ephraim hammett jones MusicScribe

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diz
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   Posted 3/3/2006 8:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
roadblocks ... indeed and one BIG roadblock is a museum in NYC (the one that holds the manuscript of The Grand Duke). No doubt about purchasing out of copy right works of great masters and then not granting access to the public in general is standard practise for these types of organisations.

As to people giving grief for your Mikado edition ... they have no recourse whatsoever ... you state quite clearly that is a performance edition and explain clearly why the parts are all standardised (Bflat clarinets throughout). I assume they're just jealous because they don't have anything in print.

I say, again, bravo and keep it coming.
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gwysham
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   Posted 4/26/2006 9:50 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ephraim said...
By the way, I don't think there was ever actually an A cornet. I think it was just some sort of attachment or extension or something to the Bb cornet.


Well, isn't that the d***dest thing. I'm not exactly an aficianado of the works of G&S, but I am a bit of an instrument nut. I'd never even heard of a cornet in A (specifically) before this, although the idea certainly isn't strange, but several years ago I ran across a Boosey & Hawkes Prototype cornet from sometime in the 1890s that had a mechanical rotary valve (that is, you turn it and it stays put, not like a french horn's valves) that changed the instrument from Bb to A. When the music store I'm associated with contacted B&H they expressed no interest in it!

I could probably get my hands on it again. It's in kind of awful shape (lots of valve leakage) although it does play!

Geoff


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Post Edited (gwysham) : 4/26/2006 8:57:53 AM (GMT-5)

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musicofnote
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   Posted 4/26/2006 5:02 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
doing a Google on "Cornet in A"comes up with all sorts of sites, some with pictures.

1) Coropeans in A
2) Conets in Bb/A
3) Cornets in A

Some were built in a, others had an "a" crook.

Whatever, as a former trumpet player now bass trombonist, learning "a" parts was a scourge. Glad I don't have to do that any more. Playing "normal" Baroque parts on a Bass Sackbutt in F is mind-bending enough at my advanced age.

;-)


greetings


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Peter West
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   Posted 4/27/2006 3:58 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Most trumpets and cornets can be tuned a semitone lower than the key they are made in. Generally the tuning slide is long enough to allow it. The 1st and 3rd valve slides need extending slightly too, though these days they mostly have mechanisms to allow the player to do that as he's playing. Cornet in A and Trumpet in A are rare nowadays, but not a problem for most players to deal with.


Peter
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musicofnote
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   Posted 4/28/2006 6:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter,

While you are correct, that with most Bb trumpets you can pull the tuning slide to acommodate the change to an A trumpet, you have very little lee-way afterwards to adjust for further pitch fluctuations due to heat, tired chops tec.

As to the mechanics to move the 1st d 3rd valves for an A trumpet, again, you are correct, but these are not practical for that purpose. Having to pull both, leaves you with almost no way to securely hold the instrument. Also, in the case of triggers, the return mechanism would have to be stopped somehow, or you would never have a stable intonation with those two valves. Simply not practical.

King did sell a Bb/A trumpet (that I know of), but mildly speaking, it was a dog. And frankly, you would have to also included an ever so slightly longer 2nd valve slide. The difference in length is proportional and not also extending the 2nd valve also simply doesn't work. All combinations with it would be slightly sharp. This was also a mistake King made - they deliverd a longer tuning slide and longer first and thrid slides, but no longer second valve slide. Intonation sucked.

As to A transpositions on the fly, I can tell you that in non-tonal music, they are a bitch. I learned, perhaps not properly, but that's how I did it, using the "step" method as opposed to the clef method of transposition. My teacher at the time gave me the choice without explaining the differences, only that transposing with clefs meant learning all the c-clefs. I was too lazy then so chose the step method. Anyway,transposing an A part in written B-major on a Bb-trumpet requires stock in an Aspirn company after a couple of measures.

Later I learned a mixture of step/clefs, dempending on the instrument and the transposition (especialy useful on piccolo trumpet), but A-trumpet transpositions always remained a horror for me. Of course, now that I don't play trumept anymore, but rather a musical instrument (bass trombone ;-) ) - I was of the type of trumpet player who viewed trumpet playing as an endurance sport - I only have to worry about Bass Trombone parts on F-Bass Sackbutt. And even then, I don't worry anymore. not since Finale.

Later - and have a good one!


greetings


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Leonard Cecil, ACHDS*, ACTC**, ACSA***
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Peter West
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   Posted 4/28/2006 7:10 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Leonard. I was in Switzerland last week but didn't have any spare time I'm afraid. One of these days we should meet up (I get to go over there 2wice a year on average)

I too no longer play trumpet, but when I did I occasionally had to play A trumpet parts. I never used to find transposition a problem, so maybe I was lucky in that respect. Trumpet in E played on a B flat was the worst, but as there's only one really awkward passage in the whole repertoir and it's used as a standard sight reading test,... My preference was for baroque trumpet, so apart from a few horrendous weeks in my youth playing in those interminable G&S "operas" I was mostly playing Trumpet in D parts on a trumpet in D and for most everything else I used a trumpet in C.


Peter
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musicofnote
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   Posted 4/28/2006 1:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Peter said...
Trumpet in E played on a B flat was the worst, but as there's only one really awkward passage in the whole repertoir and it's used as a standard sight reading test,...


Oh Gawd - how could I have forgetten THAT?

Shudder.... skull

Baroque trumpeet was how i ended up over here. i came for one year n 1977 to study with Ed Tarr (who is having his 70th birthday this June - i'll be playing Bass bone for that). that's turned out to be an exceedingly long year! lol

I used to be a high-note specialist, doing Brandenburgs, Reutter, Richter and Co. And now i'm a lw note specialist.

Go figger!


greetings


University of Applied Sciences
Northwestern Switzerland in Aarau

Leonard Cecil, ACHDS*, ACTC**, ACSA***
Systems Engineer
Department of Design and Media Art
(* - Apple Certified Help Desk Specialist)
(** - Apple Certified Technical Coordinator)
(** - Apple Certified System Administrator)

Bahnhofstr. 102, 5000 Aarau
Tel. direct +41 62 832 66 82
Fax +41 62 832 66 65
http://www.fhnw.ch
http://hyperion.fh-aargau.ch

and
Music of Note - Music Notation Workshop
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Peter West
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   Posted 4/28/2006 1:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Is Ed Tarr still around? Wow. I never got a chance to do the Brandenburg, I tended to do more choral stuff: Magnificat, B Minor Mass. Did some great concertos too. I liked the Vivaldi double concerto. Do you know the Maxwell Davies Concerto? Amazing piece. John Wallace has recorded it.

I think we've gone off topic a bit...


Peter
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musicofnote
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   Posted 4/28/2006 6:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ed is still around, living in Germany, just across the river from Switzerland. He retired from the schola 5 years ago or so, but still plays. The big B was not my favorite, but was my best paying gig. Except when I was playing with Ed, that is. Of course playing with Ed, I never got to play first, except when we did double-choir ensemble pieces, then i would play first in the "other" choir, usually having an echo to him. He once got REALLY PO'ed at me when we di sancti Polycarpi. He missed the high C and I nailed it on the echo. According to him, since I had the eho, I should have missed it just like he did.

Ed is one of those people who really changed my life and whom I tried to imitate in my own teaching. Not how he played, but rather how he handled his students. He was never one to say "play this softer" or "play this faster", but would instead ask, why one phrased something so, or why did you articulate something so? If you could justify it convincingly the worst you woudl get from him was "Well, did you notice the parallel section 8 measurees earleir in the strings? How would they do it?" OR Have you seen the treatise by XYZ ont hsi matter? Maybe you might want to talk to so-and-so about this subject, who knows more about it than I. In any case, I understand why you did it that way, even if I would do it differently". In other words, he wanted me to use my own head and form my own considered interpretations. Something I'd not experienced before in a teacher and unfortunately rarely have seen since.

Anyone can drill you into the ground with excercises and drive THEIR interpretation of a piece into your head, but not many are secure enough in their own musicianship to demand that you develope this in yourself.


greetings


University of Applied Sciences
Northwestern Switzerland in Aarau

Leonard Cecil, ACHDS*, ACTC**, ACSA***
Systems Engineer
Department of Design and Media Art
(* - Apple Certified Help Desk Specialist)
(** - Apple Certified Technical Coordinator)
(** - Apple Certified System Administrator)

Bahnhofstr. 102, 5000 Aarau
Tel. direct +41 62 832 66 82
Fax +41 62 832 66 65
http://www.fhnw.ch
http://hyperion.fh-aargau.ch

and
Music of Note - Music Notation Workshop
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diz
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   Posted 4/28/2006 10:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
As you brass players have hijacked my original posting. I'll make the most of it to pose you some brass related questions:

If I'm scoring for orchestra and the key of the work is sharp intensive, is it standard to expect orchestral trumpet players will own a trumpet in C? It would seem to be easier to play E major on a C instrument than on a B-flat one.
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Jared Haschek
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   Posted 4/28/2006 11:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Diz, nice to see another aussie on the board....even if you are from Sydney ;)

Jared


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musicofnote
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   Posted 4/29/2006 6:43 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
IMHO - you let the trumpet players look at the part and determine what instrument they want to play it on. just because you write a part for a C Trumpet doesn't mean it will be played on a C trumpet. Example: Few people play bach parts on a D trumpet although most of the parts are D-Trumpet parts (refering actually to the key of the natural trumpet the part was THEN play on). Jauchzet Gott... is for C-Trumpet, but no one plays this on a modern c-Trumpet.

The way modern trumpets are built today, even most trumpet player cannot tell if a C or a B-Flat is being played. Playing a rotary valved trumpet with a Bach or Schilke mouthpiece will not give the cliassic teutonic sound one associates with such an instrument. And on and on.

Besides that, a competent trumpet has mastered his transpositions, so sharp keys on a B-flat or a C-trumpet are non-issues. (Another reason why I realized I'd never be a good orchestral trumpet player.)


greetings


University of Applied Sciences
Northwestern Switzerland in Aarau

Leonard Cecil, ACHDS*, ACTC**, ACSA***
Systems Engineer
Department of Design and Media Art
(* - Apple Certified Help Desk Specialist)
(** - Apple Certified Technical Coordinator)
(** - Apple Certified System Administrator)

Bahnhofstr. 102, 5000 Aarau
Tel. direct +41 62 832 66 82
Fax +41 62 832 66 65
http://www.fhnw.ch
http://hyperion.fh-aargau.ch

and
Music of Note - Music Notation Workshop
http://www.music-of-note.ch

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Obiwan Kenobi
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   Posted 4/30/2006 9:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
musicofnote said...
Few people play bach parts on a D trumpet although most of the parts are D-Trumpet parts (refering actually to the key of the natural trumpet the part was THEN play on)


Sorry, but at the Baroque Department of the Conservatoire National Superieur de Musique de Paris, where I am professor, we ALWAYS use the right instruments ; in this case a true "Trompette Baroque en Ré".
That is the principal difference between a professionnal and a "dilettante" practice as yours, I suppose.
Moreover in the cantata "Jauchzet Gott in allen Landen" BWV 51, the trumpet required is a kind of "clarino" (as, for example, in the Second Brandeburg concerto is required a little tromba in F indeed), not the same a your usual trumpets in C of course (i.e. without any valves, but holes instead) - Please, see the critical material of the "Neue Bach Ausgabe" at Bärenreiter, Serie I Band 22 for further details.

musicofnote said...
not give the cliassic teutonic sound one associates with such an instrument


«Teutonic»????? I beg your pardon?

Regards
Bruno
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Post Edited (Bartok) : 4/30/2006 9:13:21 AM (GMT-5)

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musicofnote
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   Posted 4/30/2006 2:30 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bartok said...


Sorry, but at the Baroque Department of the Conservatoire National Superieur de Musique de Paris, where I am professor, we ALWAYS use the right instruments ; in this case a true "Trompette Baroque en Ré".
That is the principal difference between a professionnal and a "dilettante" practice as yours, I suppose.


And as I already wrote, no one plays D-trumpet parts on a D-trumpet. In English, when refering to a D-trumpet, one is refering to a valved instrument. If we refer to the valveless instrument, we say Baroque trumpet or nauraö trumpet. I'm very happy to hear you are at the Conservatoire National Superieur de Musique de Paris. I was at the Schola Cantorum Basiliensis and taught at the conservatory under the same roof in Basel. Let me know if you need some more help in terminology.

Bartok said...

«Teutonic»????? I beg your pardon?

You're excused.

from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Teutonic
Teu·ton·ic Pronunciation (t-tnk, ty-)
adj.
1. Of or relating to the ancient Teutons.
2. Of or relating to the Germanic languages or their speakers.
n.

"Teutonic" is what is used to describe the sound acheived with the German rotary valved trumpets. These instruments are still used extensively in Germany and Austria - so-called teutonic lands.We don't really expect French to either accept or appreciate this, as we all know of the superiority of Selmer and Benge instruments, so you are excused for not knowing this.


Somebody said...
Moreover in the cantata "Jauchzet Gott in allen Landen" BWV 51, the trumpet required is a kind of "clarino"


Dead wrong. Clarino was never an instrument as such, but rather the description of the function of a particular trumpet part and it's methode of being played. "Clarino" was almost always the name given to the upper parts, which diferentiated between these and the lower part(s) called "principale". Clarino was never the name given to any instrument, although it was the name falsely given the round so-called Reiche trumpet. Maybe you're confusing the name with that? The trumpet required for Jauchzet Gott.. was a valve-less trumpet in C, inasmuch as there is no such instrument as a clarino. The last time I played this was in Milan in 1982 with a pick-up orchestra that was actually playing Ariodante at the Piccolo Scala under alan Curtis. Helmut Rilling (a very "nice" man, who anyone who has played under him will attest) was the conductor. He greeted the group with "Hello. I'm so gald to be here in Milan, where I was expecting a group on modern instruments, but we'll struggle along somehow."

For a more detailed discussion of this, check out Groves or Edward H. Tarr's Definitive work on the Subject "Die Trompete" or "The Trumpet" or "Le trompette" in French. i might add, that he (my teacher at the Schola from 1977-81) told me that he wrote the German and French versions himself, but let the english version be translated, because he was out of practice in writing in his native language. interesting, eh?

Somebody said...
ot the same a your usual trumpets in C of course (i.e. without any valves, but holes instead)


There is no existing instrumet from the Baroque period with holes. While i do not know exactly who came up with the holes in Baroque trumpet replications, I do know that the company of Meinl & Lauber made quite a name for developin g first one holed models and later three-holed models. Rainer Egger in Basel, Switzerland makes some of the finest instrumets today in Europe, even french players come to Basel to buy their instruments. Crispin Steele-Perkins was one of several english trumpet players who helped develope a whole differnt line of holed-Baroque trumpets. But I digress. There are no existing original holed trumpet instruments from the Baroque era.

BTW - why not give me your real name and I'll say hi to Ed Tarr from you. I'm sure he'll get a kick out of your perspectives on trumept playing, prof. I know I sure do.


greetings


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musicofnote
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   Posted 4/30/2006 2:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Mr. Bela

i wrote on April30th:
musicofnote said...
IMHO - you let the trumpet players look at the part and determine what instrument they want to play it on. just because you write a part for a C Trumpet doesn't mean it will be played on a C trumpet. Example: Few people play bach parts on a D trumpet although most of the parts are D-Trumpet parts (refering actually to the key of the natural trumpet the part was THEN play on). Jauchzet Gott... is for C-Trumpet, but no one plays this on a modern c-Trumpet.


Did you not understand, that I DID write, "no one play this on a modern c-Trumpet?


greetings


University of Applied Sciences
Northwestern Switzerland in Aarau

Leonard Cecil, ACHDS*, ACTC**, ACSA***
Systems Engineer
Department of Design and Media Art
(* - Apple Certified Help Desk Specialist)
(** - Apple Certified Technical Coordinator)
(** - Apple Certified System Administrator)

Bahnhofstr. 102, 5000 Aarau
Tel. direct +41 62 832 66 82
Fax +41 62 832 66 65
http://www.fhnw.ch
http://hyperion.fh-aargau.ch

and
Music of Note - Music Notation Workshop
http://www.music-of-note.ch

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Obiwan Kenobi
Very happy Jedi



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   Posted 4/30/2006 3:42 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
musicofnote said...
Dead wrong. Clarino was never an instrument as such, but rather the description of the function of a particular trumpet part and it's methode of being played. "Clarino" was almost always the name given to the upper parts, which diferentiated between these and the lower part(s) called "principale". Clarino was never the name given to any instrument, although it was the name falsely given the round so-called Reiche trumpet. Maybe you're confusing the name with that? The trumpet required for Jauchzet Gott.. was a valve-less trumpet in C, inasmuch as there is no such instrument as a clarino.


Good morning Mr I-know-all,
But sorry: that is what you can read in books and what is really. If you want to see such instruments, you are welcome in Conservatoire next time you come in Paris.

musicofnote said...
There is no existing instrumet from the Baroque period with holes


Am I dreaming? or are you.......?

I suggest to add this to your very pretentious signature:
Leonard Cecil
ACMCM**** (Apple Certified Most Conceited Man)

Cheers
Bruno


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Robert P.
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   Posted 4/30/2006 4:02 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This is a very interesting topic indeed, but calm down, gentlemen!

R.
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