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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 5/16/2007 2:42 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Paulson has apparently expressed a desire for the userbase to send him a prioritised list of bugs in 2007.
forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=188633&p=3
Perhaps we could collate it here before it is sent?

1. Please only post bugs that remain unfixed in 2007c.
2. Please only post bugs that have been confirmed as bugs, rather than any particular unproven local difficulties you may be currently experiencing.
3. Wherever possible, link to a prior thread discussing the bug.
4. Try to stay on topic!
5. Make sure to mention whether PC or Mac.
6. This is not a feature request list!

There are a number of prior threads discussing bugs in 2007, which should be perused thoroughly.


Finale 2007c, 2Ghz iMac, M-Audio Audiophile USB
Ancient Groove Music
http://www.cappella.demon.co.uk/music

Post Edited (Wiggy) : 5/16/2007 1:56:32 AM (GMT-5)

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Peter West
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   Posted 5/16/2007 3:42 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The ones that bug me most(!) are (Mac version)
1. slurs on grace notes where the grace note has stem up and the main note has stem down are always distorted with engraver slurs. Engraver slurs has to be switched off to make them appear correctly
2. Slurs change shape depending on page magnification. I suspect that various contours for length are being selected. These contour ranges and thresholds need to be scaled with the page size
3. Engraver tuplets are useless. When I select stem/beam side, it should be always be stem beam side. Tuplets under the staff often move in the opposite direction to handle drag. There is no way to control the default distance of tuplets from the staff when avoid staff is selected
4. Articulations on cross staffed notes don't position according to the articulatons settings.
5. Staff assigned expressions on a pickup measure do not position correctly is auto placements are set up


Peter
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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 5/16/2007 4:57 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I would suggest that the hyphenation bugs are a pretty high priority.
Currently, hyphens disappear when there is too large a gap between syllables. behaviour was correct in 2005.
Also, hyphens do not appear in text on ossia measures.

See this discussion
forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&p=1&m=178998

(I recant my assertion in the thread that all is fine, and agree with Michael Cook that the hyphen behaviour has changed and is not correct as of 2007c.)


Finale 2007c, 2Ghz iMac, M-Audio Audiophile USB
Ancient Groove Music
http://www.cappella.demon.co.uk/music

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 5/16/2007 5:58 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
In no particular order:

1) Deleting a notes from a measure will destroy a clef change at the end of the previous measure: this should not happen

2) Accidentals are not handled correctly in multi-layer measures: if you play "C Eb G C" into layer one, and "G C E G" into layer 2, where the "Eb" and "E" are on the same staff line, no natural sign is shown on the "E". This is wrong in musical terms, and would be played as an Eb by most musicians.

3) Rests in layers should not collide with notes in other layers: just as "engraver tuples", "engraver slurs", etc., know where to place themselves in relation to notes, so should other-layer rests.

4) Printing of brackets, braces, slurs and ties is broken from Finale 2006 onwards (including 2007c) when running on Win98; this problem does not occur on Win2K/XP/Vista, and unless Finale 2008 is made available for the earlier OS, then I guess (4) is going to be ignored!

5) Printing of clef changes via Adobe PDFWriter creates minute clef symbols, which are about 25% of the on-screen size. I don't know if this is a Win98-only issue, in which case my previous comment about (4) applies.

6) <SPACE><CLICK> playback can result in a freeze-up in Vista, especially if the mouse is clicked outside of Finale's window.

7) HELP does not work in Vista, unless the user downloads and installs WINHLP32.EXE from Microsoft

Others may follow as I think of them ...

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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John Iafrate
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   Posted 5/16/2007 7:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
When I input with speedy entry in multiple page view everything disappears until I redraw and update the layout.

Thanks
John Iafrate
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BvdPress
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   Posted 5/16/2007 8:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John Iafrate said...
When I input with speedy entry in multiple page view everything disappears until I redraw and update the layout.

Thanks
John Iafrate


Or if you edit/move items in page view. I have blisters for hitting command-D.

Number one for me is the fact that depending upon the percentage you view a page, a slur may appear fine (not at 100%) or loopy (at 100%). To follow-up on what Peter said above, it also has to do with a section of notes that have stems going in opposite direction (up or down).

The part of the program that deals with pieces with independent meters (6/8 against 2/4, etc.) needs a complete overhaul. You cannot make hairpins on the bottom staff unless you copy and paste, you cannot copy notes between files, you cannot use certain plugins even if you extract parts unless you tun off independent meters, etc. I don't use this independent meters too often, but this happened twice this week and cost me an incredible amount of time.
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jcraig1
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   Posted 5/16/2007 9:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Explode Music does not work correctly, as it did previously. If there have been enharmonic changes the music does not explode correctly, rather puts the bottom note of the chord in all the parts.

Enharmonic spelling does not seem to be working correctly, i.e., E# and B# are almost never preferred options in the key of C.

The hyphenation (or the disappearance of hyphens) is a disaster. Must be fixed. No work-around that Tech Support has offered to me works.

The display disappearance when using View Multiple Pages and invoking just about ANY tool is not correct.


Joel Craig
Craig Music Services
New York City/Florida

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 5/16/2007 1:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Another Day, Another Bug ...

I've just modified my "Maestro Font Default.ftm" template file, which contains 4 bars of piano staff as a "guide", so that the inter-staff space is reduced from -2.8... (cm) to -2.5. This closer spacing looks better at my preferred 80% printing size. I also added 0.25 (cm) space between systems in Options/Format/Score. The overall result makes for a much more pleasant layout.

If I do "File/New/Default Document", I get my new layout. But if I do "File/New/Wizard", and select (say) piano, Finale reverts to its old, -2.8... staff spacing. However, it does keep my 0.25 system spacing, so my carefully sized staves no longer fit properly within my chosen print margins.

The Bug: All other aspects of my default template are copied into Wizard-generated scores, except for the inter-staff spacing.

I've just checked: this is in 2006, as well as 2005 (I don't have 2007 up and running at present).

Please get a fix for this added to the bug list!


Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 5/16/2007 2:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I see the potential here for an extremely long list with a lot of minutia. I think the way to get the best results will be for Zuill, since the CEO responded to him, as Wiggy suggested prioritize these bugs. If a list gets sent in with hundreds of items, it will be easier to gloss over the items. A concise list, that really lets them know what it would take to "fix" 2007 (quoting from another thread) would be harder to ignore.

JT


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Zuill
"The Troll"



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   Posted 5/16/2007 2:13 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I wish that I could oblige, but since I only have 2005 installed, he didn't seem to think I had any valuable input. So I must respectfully decline while I use 2005 for my work.

Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 5/16/2007 2:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm happy to collate the bug list, come up with priority and post it here before sending to JP.


Finale 2007c, 2Ghz iMac, M-Audio Audiophile USB
Ancient Groove Music
http://www.cappella.demon.co.uk/music

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 5/16/2007 3:23 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think the list does need to be concise, consisting of MAJOR flaws to the program where it is clearly BROKEN – particularly where the feature worked fine previously. I don't think we can include things that are simply a bit quirky or don't quite work in the way we might wish. At this stage, I really don't think we can include things where the solution is to manually adjust something.

We may not get a 2007 version D: but simply a promise that these will be looked at for 2008.

Brian, I don't think we can expect issues with Win98 to be resolved. Sorry.
I am assuming that issues relating to Vista are probably already at the top of MM's to do list, but it would be good to hear from people about those. I understand there's a playback problem?

So far:

1. Hyphenation
2. Multiple pages non-redraw
3. MIDI Tool slowness

Can anyone here confirm that bugs still exist:

* Linked parts, particularly printing problems
* Issues with GPO, Kontakt Player

Partial measure copy and paste is broken - layer shift.


Finale 2007c, 2Ghz iMac, M-Audio Audiophile USB
Ancient Groove Music
http://www.cappella.demon.co.uk/music

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 5/16/2007 4:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy said...
Brian, I don't think we can expect issues with Win98 to be resolved. Sorry.

That only accounts for points (4) and (5) in my original listing, and I'd already said as much myself!, as in:

I said...
... then I guess (4) is going to be ignored!

I think the playback freeze bug (6) should be escalated to your high-priority list: it happens in 2007c in Vista, as well as 2006, 2005, etc., and completely locks up Finale for the duration of a piece, with no way of stopping or breaking in, other than to wait to the end or to force termination, with like loss of user data. In fact, I lost a whole day's work because of this, when I was trying out Vista for the first time. One of the crashes corrupted the file and source folder I'd been working on so badly, I could not retrieve anything from it or even its backup.

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 5/16/2007 4:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How about the problem in 2007 of the last page not printing when "Print All" is selected?

I'm not sure about the exact circumstances that cause this, but I think it has to do with printing more than one part at a time. Can anyone be more specific?

Bill
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ephraim
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   Posted 5/16/2007 5:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The tuplet issues that Peter mentioned should be addressed as well. I copied my tuplet default settings from my 2006 default file into 2007 and they are not working correctly. The number appears too low vertically when there are brackets and turning on Avoid staff causes problems with distance from staff lines. Please make all tuplet handles appear when the tool is selected like with articulations and expressions (sorry, I couldn't resist a feature request, and these bugs may not get fixed until 2008 anyway)

Measure Expressions and sometimes note expressions frequently jump to another location after clicking them in.

Hidden items are much too dark, it is very difficult to see what your score looks like if you have many hidden items.

Using Speedy Entry, it is very hard to see where the cursor is located on the staff. Maybe using a different color for the cursor would help. Using the bracket keys to advance or move the frame backward the cursor dissapears.

I use so many workarounds for broken features and bugs that I forget what the program was supposed to do in the first place. I'll have to pay attention while I work and jot down notes.


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Stephen Siegel
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   Posted 5/16/2007 6:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1. When using Speedy Entry, on my machine, the cursor does not disappear when going forward or backward using the bracket keys. However, it does disappear when using return or shift return to move to a different staff. It reappears when any of the arrow keys is pressed.

2. The appearance of hidden objects can be modified on the View page of the Program Options dialog box by changing the percentage in Hidden Object Shading from its default setting of 50%.


Stephen Siegel
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tim
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   Posted 5/16/2007 8:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
1. There is a new problem (no problem in 06) with changing enharmonics in speedy. It can sometimes delete all the other accidentals throughout the bar.
2. Measure attached expressions copy and paste bug. Create a measure attached expression and set it to 'this staff only' then copy that to another stave below or above. Then copy and paste both bars later in the same doc or to a new one. The copies of the expression will not copy 90% of the time in the same doc and never in the new doc.
3. Sometimes holding control and clicking on a note to select it in simple entry does not select it, it changes it to what ever the selected tool is as if control was not down.

Not a bug, but-
it is about time that expressions learnt to move out of the way of accidentals and hairpins.
Smart shape options should be in Document options so they can be saved with libraries.

Tim
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KennethKen
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   Posted 5/16/2007 8:31 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Wiggy said...
I think the list does need to be concise, consisting of MAJOR flaws to the program where it is clearly BROKEN – particularly where the feature worked fine previously.
The flat sign for part names used to transfer properly to extracted files.  This is no longer the case.  Since the file name is now drawn from the from a field in the File Info  window which does not handle mixed fonts your linked part that shows "Clarinet in Bb" where the "b" is a real flat symbol will extract to a small letter "b" making the engraver look like a total amateur.rolleyes   Anyone choosing to follow their old workflow will be unpleasantly surprised at this undesireable and undocumented shortcoming.
 
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Post Edited (KennethKen) : 5/17/2007 9:37:58 PM (GMT-5)

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KennethKen
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   Posted 5/16/2007 8:36 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Do we really believe that MM/JP does not have such a list already?

David (on the PC side of the forum) has been compiling this sort of stuff for years and if MM was really concerned with fixing these things the developers/programmers/marketing team would have already prioritized the list long ago using their own formula.


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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 5/16/2007 9:46 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
>> Do we really believe that MM/JP does not have such a list already?

One would hope that MM has not ignored the umpteen lists that have been compiled before, but still, if Paulson has requested a list of the most egregious bugs, and if Wiggy is willing to do the grunt work, then I'd say give it a shot.

I would vote for having the lyric hyphenation bug at the top of the list. I expect this is one that even first-week novice users are going to run into.

Bill
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Stephen Siegel
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   Posted 5/16/2007 10:06 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tim:

I am not sure that what you describe as the "measure attached expressions copy and paste bug" is, in fact a bug. When one designates that an expression should apply to "this staff only" then wouldn't it be a bug if it copied to another staff? To accomplish what you want, you could use a note attached expression. Or, you can select and drag the bars you want to to the destination staff and the measure attached expressions will copy. They also copy if you use the "insert" command when transferring to a new document.


Stephen Siegel
Dual 2.5 GHz G5 Powermac
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OS 10.4.9
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MOTU 2408 mk.3 audio interface
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tim
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   Posted 5/16/2007 11:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Stephen

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Imagine you have a crescendo on a whole note that needs an ff at the end of the bar. This happens in several staves. I would put the notes in and then put the expresions and artics and hairpins etc in one of the parts then copy and paste just those things to all the other staves. So now I have several staves with expressions that are set to this staff only. This is all fine until you try to Insert ALL those bars later into the same doc or into a new one. When you do this, only one of the measure expressions stays, it is somewhat erratic as to if it is the first one or the last copy that stays. You can Paste later to the same doc, but if you insert you get the error. Into a new doc you get the problem either way. I went through it with MM in 2006 and they agreed it was a bug but I had hoped it would be fixed in 07. This is on a PC, have not tried it on a mac.

The work arounds are not ideal. Attaching to the note and dragging is a pain as when the parts are made or the score layout changes, the bar may be a different width and the distance will not scale so the expression will be in the wrong place. Using a staff list would work but takes too much time to set up and in my situation is impractical. The work around is to wait until the last minute to copy and paste all of the artics and expressions. The reason I need to do any of this in the first place is that I orchestrate film scores. I start with an imported midi file and I like to put in stuff as I clean up. Then I insert that into my score template. Now I just put the expressions into one stave and paste it later, but it is not ideal.

Tim
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Zuill
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   Posted 5/17/2007 2:12 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...

Do we really believe that MM/JP does not have such a list already?

David (on the PC side of the forum) has been compiling this sort of stuff for years and if MM was really concerned with fixing these things the developers/programmers/marketing team would have already prioritized the list long ago using their own formula.

Exactly. That's why, when John Paulson asked me for one, I asked him to read the forum. I also laughed inside of myself, thinking that 1) I know they already have such a list and 2) I believe he wanted to keep me busy to keep me at bay.
 
Oh well. The cross staff dot bug got fixed after years of haranguing. The squeaky wheel gets the oil sometimes.
 
Zuill


"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
 
Finale 2002b, 2003a, 2004b, 2005b, Win 2000 or XP
 
Favorite Forum quote: "Please, everybody, IGNORE THE TROLL!"

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Dr. Wiggy
Early music: modern methods



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   Posted 5/17/2007 5:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KennethKen said...
Do we really believe that MM/JP does not have such a list already?

David (on the PC side of the forum) has been compiling this sort of stuff for years and if MM was really concerned with fixing these things the developers/programmers/marketing team would have already prioritized the list long ago using their own formula.


David who? If such a list exists, then that would be a great start.

Either the CEO has asked for a list because he wants to sort out the problems, or because he wants to fob us off. Whilst they may have their own list, if we give him our own one, then the ball is in his court, and it shows that we are are useful resource for Finale's development.


Finale 2007c, 2Ghz iMac, M-Audio Audiophile USB
Ancient Groove Music
http://www.cappella.demon.co.uk/music

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Ebony Ivory
On Ebony And Ivory I'll Tinkle All Day Long



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   Posted 5/17/2007 5:35 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Stephen Siegel said...
Tim:

I am not sure that what you describe as the "measure attached expressions copy and paste bug" is, in fact a bug. When one designates that an expression should apply to "this staff only" then wouldn't it be a bug if it copied to another staff? To accomplish what you want, you could use a note attached expression. Or, you can select and drag the bars you want to to the destination staff and the measure attached expressions will copy. They also copy if you use the "insert" command when transferring to a new document.

I'm with Tim on this one: copy/paste should do just that: copy what's in a measure and paste it somewhere else. Making "exceptions" for certain items, such as expressions, makes everything very counterintuitive.

At least things work better in 2005 than they did in 2003, where expressions would copy, but forget their "this staff only" or "staff list" assignements, all becoming "all staves". Any piece of music that contained expressions becamge effectively impossible to duplicate without huge amounts of subsequent cleanup work.

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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