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Tyler
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   Posted 10/25/2007 8:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ebony Ivory said...
Tyler said...
You're not going to invest more money into a product than the product is going to potentially return. Being purchased by Avid does not mean that tons of extra funds are going to be poured into Sibelius. In the case of Finale and SmartMusic, SmartMusic's dynamic growth is improved by putting any extra resources into Finale necessary to keep it competitive.

Tyler, you really are the past master of self-contradiction! Here, you start by saying that being part of a larger picture does not mean money is going to go into that part, and then instantly suggest this is exactly what's going to happen to Finale thanks to SmartMusic. I can feel one of those DIAPOL moments coming up (Disappears In A Puff Of Logic) ...



Please look at my quote again. Sibelius is owned by Avid, but that doesn't mean the success of the Sibelius notation program is integral to the success of any separate, important product they have. I'm trying to show the distinction there. You could conceivably invest more money in Finale development than Finale itself brings in through Finale sales, because doing so could allow you to more than make up for it through increased SmartMusic revenue.
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Ebony Ivory
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   Posted 10/26/2007 8:30 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tyler said...
Please look at my quote again. Sibelius is owned by Avid, but that doesn't mean the success of the Sibelius notation program is integral to the success of any separate, important product they have. I'm trying to show the distinction there. You could conceivably invest more money in Finale development than Finale itself brings in through Finale sales, because doing so could allow you to more than make up for it through increased SmartMusic revenue.

If Avid's other products were Espresso Machines or Locking Wheel Nuts, I might agree. But they're not ...

Here in the UK, at least, Avid also sells M-Audio keyboards and other MIDI hardware. And they sell Sibelius. And, and here's the rub, they also sell bundles comprising Sibelius and M-Audio keyboards/MIDI hardware. In other words, they have become a one-stop shop which lets a non-musically equipped user get everything they need - software and hardware - to start creating music on their computer.

I would reckon that these bundles could be seen as either helping sell Sibelius (on the back of a successful range of MIDI hardware), or vice versa. It's pure synergy. Just like you claim for SmartMusic and Finale.

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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David Young : chambermusic
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   Posted 10/26/2007 3:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You have to think about it for a moment.

If Avid is overtaking the music software/hardware industry by bundling their notation software with hardware (or pro tools, their other software product) then you have to wonder what their competitors will do. I'm not talking about the Sibelius competitor (Finale),.... I'm talking about their competitors for the hardware and other software products, among them MOTU and Apple.

Will we see some means of the joining of forces between Make Music and Apple or Make Music and MOTU?.... or something of this nature.

David Young


David Young
 
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Obiwan Kenobi
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   Posted 10/27/2007 5:56 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ebony Ivory said...
Together with the other 89/94/98


Waouh ! Penelope Cruz ? :p

Bruno


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Sebastian Huydts
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   Posted 10/27/2007 9:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Interesting discussion—what I did not read in the above reactions is the following (perhaps implied):

My beef with Finale is its outdated user interface, and MM's steadfast refusal to develop and implement some basic changes that would make the application more user friendly. Whenever Finale implements changes, it is always piecemeal, unfinished, inconsistent, buggy, or a combination of the aforementioned, which makes it an outright shoddy piece of work. I am talking about the lack of user assignable key codes for almost EVERYTHING (WHY the need for a third party product? HOW difficult can this be to program? Sib. has it!); the ability to copy and paste items such as expressions, clefs, key signatures; the many needless (left over?) dialogue boxes, the many "shortcuts" that feature incomplete pull down menus (WHY still not a "show key/time key signature always/never" function, but most others in the measure tool pull down menu? Why a select number of key changes, not ALL of them?), and I could go on and on. It has been all described, all reported, and the official response is silence. NOT with Sibelius, they have a couple of Carlas reading the customer response on their forum, and they consistently respond, offer solutions, and I have seen Sibelius, to which I switched about two years ago now, implement a host of requested improvements, and acknowledge the list of improvements yet to be made.

I write a lot of instructional work (in addition to my "serious music"). Granted I do not need the complexity that Bruno referred to, I do not need Finale's complexity to accomplish simple tasks either. Sibelius takes me less than half the time to put in fingerings, articulations, dynamics, and make the layout presentable. Yes, I am stuck with the look of the brace in Sib., but in the grand schem of things, that is truly minor. The EPS files always work. I teach composition to kids in the ages of 12-18. I need to be able to have them develop their musical skills, not loose my lesson time on instructing them to "adapt" to a unwieldy piece of software.

I do see the importance of (at least) two major competing companies in the development of music notation software. I hope that MM has enough survival instinct to start listening to its customer base, and do some meaningful functionality changes and upgrades. Otherwise, Finale will ultimately become the Rolls Royce of programs—too costly (in time and money)to do what it does for the lay composer.


Sebastian Huydts

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Obiwan Kenobi
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   Posted 10/28/2007 6:11 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Friends,

Just a little observation: you are talking about Avid ; do you know what the (phonetically) meaning of this word in French?
Avide = Greedy.

Humm! smilewinkgrin

Bruno
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Post Edited (Obiwan Kénobi) : 10/28/2007 9:03:08 AM (GMT-5)

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MattiMattMatt
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   Posted 10/28/2007 4:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There is no equivalent for Speedy Note entry in Sibelius. it is only in Finale. Speedy Note entry means you can fiddle around on your keyboard (without entering notes), and then hold down a note or chord you want and THEN plunk in the rhythmic value on your computer keyboard. When you actually want to input music: play note, play rhythmic value, repeat. This lets you use the keyboard as an independent keyboard, and then input notation - fast - when you want to use it to input notation.

This is BY FAR the most musical way to enter notation since it allows you to both play at the keyboard AND control, easilly, when notes are input into the program. You play the note, register with your ear that it is correct, and engage the software. The alternative, that you first select a rhythmic value and then play a note means that the software is always listening and the keyboard is always "hot." This means the keyboard is exclusively a notation input device and no fiddling allowed (without turning notation off).

As long as Finale is the only program with Speedy Note entry (note first then rhythmic value, not the other way around), there is no useful alternative... for me!
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Ebony Ivory
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   Posted 10/28/2007 6:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
chambermusic said...
You have to think about it for a moment.

If Avid is overtaking the music software/hardware industry by bundling their notation software with hardware (or pro tools, their other software product) then you have to wonder what their competitors will do. I'm not talking about the Sibelius competitor (Finale),.... I'm talking about their competitors for the hardware and other software products, among them MOTU and Apple.

Will we see some means of the joining of forces between Make Music and Apple or Make Music and MOTU?.... or something of this nature.

David Young

Based on Apple's record with its buy-out if Emagic, any similar takeover of MM would spell doom and gloom to the bulk of Finale users, who naturally use Windows. So while many of us might cheer if the right corporation took over MM, Apple is not that organisation ...

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Ebony Ivory
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   Posted 10/28/2007 6:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MattiMattMatt said...
There is no equivalent for Speedy Note entry in Sibelius. it is only in Finale. Speedy Note entry means you can fiddle around on your keyboard (without entering notes), and then hold down a note or chord you want and THEN plunk in the rhythmic value on your computer keyboard.

Brilliant! Except that many of us use Speedy in "Caps Lock" mode (Why on earth Caps Lock? But that's for another day!), when inputs do go straight in. If I want to "doodle", I simply click somewhere outside of any measure to make the editing frame vanish, and play to my heart's content. When I want to enter my ideas, I click on the relevant bar, select the first duration and start playing notes on the MIDI keyboard.

That mode of work is also possible in Encore and Sibelius, and seems entirely natural. Whapping a QWERTY keyboard over and over in order to enter rhythmic patterns is not.

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Ebony Ivory
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   Posted 10/28/2007 7:00 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
chambermusic said...
You have to think about it for a moment.

If Avid is overtaking the music software/hardware industry by bundling their notation software with hardware (or pro tools, their other software product) then you have to wonder what their competitors will do. I'm not talking about the Sibelius competitor (Finale),.... I'm talking about their competitors for the hardware and other software products, among them MOTU and Apple.

Will we see some means of the joining of forces between Make Music and Apple or Make Music and MOTU?.... or something of this nature.

David Young

Maybe a Pro Tools with really good scoring abilities - or a Sibelius with serious DAW, sequencing and video capabilities - would really be the Killer Music App. And with dedicated hardware control surfaces (mixer-style, and/or MIDI keyboards, etc), it would become something of a no-brainer for new users to buy the whole suite, lock-stock-and-barrel, rather than fish around for an eclectic (and expensive) mix of software and hardware from numerous, not entirely compatible manufacturers!

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Flint
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   Posted 10/29/2007 11:58 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sebastian Huydts said...
I teach composition to kids in the ages of 12-18. I need to be able to have them develop their musical skills, not loose my lesson time on instructing them to "adapt" to a unwieldy piece of software.
So, it's important for you to teach them composition but not have them burdened by correct notation? Because in Sibelius, most of the time the engraving is too far from engraver quality. It's notational output is truly "good enough" for people for whom "good enough" is "good enough".


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BvdPress
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   Posted 10/29/2007 12:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...
Sebastian Huydts said...

I teach composition to kids in the ages of 12-18. I need to be able to have them develop their musical skills, not loose my lesson time on instructing them to "adapt" to a unwieldy piece of software.
So, it's important for you to teach them composition but not have them burdened by correct notation? Because in Sibelius, most of the time the engraving is too far from engraver quality. It's notational output is truly "good enough" for people for whom "good enough" is "good enough".


I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the idea is that the tool to get music on the page should not inhibit the creative process.

Since I started this thread talking about the presentation I attended about Sibelius, I figured i would give you a few more details about why I am concerned about the future of Finale:

There were 8 people in attendance
6 were exclusive Finale users and 2 did use a notation program currently
Those 6 Finale users each purchased a copy of Sibelius

I agree with Flint about the notation in Sibelius, but that is not really my concern because I currently engrave everything in Finale. My main concern is the future of Finale. Like I said, out of the box there isn't even a choice to consider. I feel MM really needs to take a hard look at their product and figure out a way to make it more appealing to new users and their current base which continually gets annoyed at the lack of bug fixes, lack of communication with users, etc.
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Philip.
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   Posted 10/29/2007 12:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...
Because in Sibelius, most of the time the engraving is too far from engraver quality. It's notational output is truly "good enough" for people for whom "good enough" is "good enough".

That's an unfair swipe at Sibelius. The same could easily be said for Finale. It all depends on the user to truly achieve engraved quality.
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Tyler
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   Posted 10/29/2007 12:45 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BVDPRESS said...


There were 8 people in attendance
6 were exclusive Finale users and 2 did use a notation program currently
Those 6 Finale users each purchased a copy of Sibelius

I agree with Flint about the notation in Sibelius, but that is not really my concern because I currently engrave everything in Finale. My main concern is the future of Finale. Like I said, out of the box there isn't even a choice to consider.


I got every Sibelius user at the school I help out at to switch to Finale. Don't underestimate the effect of the demonstration. If you look around the net at some websites where young people are choosing on their own between Finale and Sibelius, after trying both, you'll find that Finale is doing fine with the younger generations. Many of them feel it's just easier to use than Sibelius after trying the demos of both.

The issue here is that most users, especially students, never get terribly proficient with either Finale or Sibelius on their own. So when they see a real professional handle the software and guide them through it, they can easily be turned. Both Finale and Sibelius are horrible at teaching themselves. They give you several ways to accomplish most tasks, and the most efficient method is rarely the most obvious.
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BvdPress
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   Posted 10/29/2007 1:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tyler said...
BVDPRESS said...


There were 8 people in attendance
6 were exclusive Finale users and 2 did use a notation program currently
Those 6 Finale users each purchased a copy of Sibelius

I agree with Flint about the notation in Sibelius, but that is not really my concern because I currently engrave everything in Finale. My main concern is the future of Finale. Like I said, out of the box there isn't even a choice to consider.


I got every Sibelius user at the school I help out at to switch to Finale. Don't underestimate the effect of the demonstration. If you look around the net at some websites where young people are choosing on their own between Finale and Sibelius, after trying both, you'll find that Finale is doing fine with the younger generations. Many of them feel it's just easier to use than Sibelius after trying the demos of both..


The 6 were not students, but were long time Finale users. Most have used the program for 10+ years.

You are proving my point with your statement: Don't underestimate the effect of the demonstration.

I tell anyone who asks to download both demos and see which one is the best for the work they do.

I don't see the need to look around the net to see which program people are using. I run a music publishing company and get new file submissions almost every day. These used to all be Finale files and now there is at the very least a 50/50 split. I feel this is because MM fails to connect (or communicate) with their future and current customer base.

Tyler: If you are convincing the students to switch to Finale, you have to ask yourself why they were using Sibelius in the first place?
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Ebony Ivory
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   Posted 10/29/2007 1:15 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Here in Europe it's way more than 50:50 (Sib:Fin). In the UK, the word "Sibelius" is virtually synonymous with computer-based music scoring, in the same way "Photoshop" means computer-based image manipulation, "Hoover" means "vacuum cleaner", "sellotape" means "sticky tape" and "Kleenex" means "paper handkerchief".

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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BvdPress
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   Posted 10/29/2007 1:16 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ebony Ivory said...
Here in Europe it's way more than 50:50 (Sib:Fin).
Brian


Just curious if there is a trend either way?
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Ebony Ivory
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   Posted 10/29/2007 1:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By the time the "general musical public" (by which I mean instrumentalists, singers, choreographers and the like) became aware that you could write music notation with a computer, the word "Sibelius" was already how most of them described it. The old systems like NoteWorthy Composer, ShowTune, Score and others never made their existence known outside of the specialist computer musicians who used them.

Certainly amongst the former group, the brand awareness of "Finale" has never had any more resonance than "LilyPond", "NoteWorthy" or "CakeWalk". Those that use it, know about it. Those that don't, have heard of Sibelius.

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 10/29/2007 1:54 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
FWIW,

On the Sibelius forum, one of the complaints is that you can't export an XML file without purchasing the Sib. Dolet from Recordare. And why do they want to export in XML format? Because they want to bring their files into SmartMusic.

JT


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BvdPress
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   Posted 10/29/2007 1:57 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jetcopy said...
FWIW,

On the Sibelius forum, one of the complaints is that you can't export an XML file without purchasing the Sib. Dolet from Recordare. And why do they want to export in XML format? Because they want to bring their files into SmartMusic.

JT


Maybe a dumb question, but can you dump XML into SmartMusic directly? If so, that is quite cool!
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Jetcopy
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   Posted 10/29/2007 2:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BVDPRESS said...
Jetcopy said...
FWIW,

On the Sibelius forum, one of the complaints is that you can't export an XML file without purchasing the Sib. Dolet from Recordare. And why do they want to export in XML format? Because they want to bring their files into SmartMusic.

JT


Maybe a dumb question, but can you dump XML into SmartMusic directly? If so, that is quite cool!


I don't think so, you need Finale for that. Here's the post from the Sib. forum that I was referring to:

When I saw the announcement about the 5.1 upgrade and saw that it mentioned MusicXML support I was overjoyed at the thought of being able to export my files to MusicXML to send to a colleague who still uses Finale. Sadly I see my hopes were misplaced. After installing 5.1 I see that there is still no way to export to MusicXML format so in turn there is still no way to get music from Sibelius into Finale.

Am I right about this? Is there a way to move from Sibelius to Finale without having to shell out additional money to pay over a hundred dollars more for the Dolet plug-in?

As an aside, I am sure there are financial reasons that both companies have avoided including this option, but in my opinion Sibelius and MakeMusic both need to take a note from Microsoft and allow their formats to be saved and opened in other notation packages instead of making their users jump through hoops to do convert between the two. I would personally love to stay with Sibelius as I think it is superior to Finale, but as things are I forsee a day in the near future when I will have to move to Finale simply to be able to provide my clients easy access to files they can use with SmartMusic in their classrooms.

----
Chad Criswell


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Ebony Ivory
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   Posted 10/29/2007 2:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well there we go! Considering that Sibelius ...

1) Can read Finale files

2) Can save in older-than-current Sibelius file format

... I guess there's less need for the software to save as MusicXML natively.

So they suggest you buy Dolet if you want full MusicXML capability? Sounds familiar?? It should - the same is true of Finale.

Oh, and notice in the quote, "to send to a colleague who still uses Finale": clearly, this writer expects his colleague to switch at any time!

Brian


On ebony and ivory I'll tinkle all day long

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 10/29/2007 3:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ebony Ivory said...

clearly, this writer expects his colleague to switch at any time!

I don't think so.

Sounds to me like he was describing his colleague as "stubborn" from his perspective.

JT


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Obiwan Kenobi
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   Posted 10/29/2007 3:55 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jetcopy said...
Sounds to me like he was describing his colleague as "stubborn" from his perspective.

This remember me Asterix le gaulois in his breton village resisting "still and forever" to invaders (Roma).
Sure we, Finale Users, do drink the "Magic Potion". lol

Bruno
Paris-France


G4-1.8Ghz / 1.5Go RAM / OSX 10.4.9
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Post Edited (Obiwan Kénobi) : 10/29/2007 2:59:36 PM (GMT-5)

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Tyler
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   Posted 10/29/2007 5:38 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BVDPRESS said...


Tyler: If you are convincing the students to switch to Finale, you have to ask yourself why they were using Sibelius in the first place?


I know the reason. There was one Sibelius user who gave a demonstration to them and got them to switch away from Finale. Most of the students stuck with Finale, but a few went to Sibelius due to that person's demonstrations. I showed them how to use Finale effectively, and they switched back.

MakeMusic provides its own demonstrations. They both are effective in their "recruiting."

Ebony Ivory said...
So they suggest you buy Dolet if you want full MusicXML capability? Sounds familiar?? It should - the same is true of Finale.


The limitations with the Sibelius version of MusicXML are not at all the same as Finale's included version. Most importantly, Sibelius doesn't include MusicXML export at all. If you want to take files to Finale, you have to pay money. Finale's included MusicXML export lets you share files with many other programs. Sibelius can't. Furthermore, I believe Finale's included MusicXML export is more accurate than the MusicXML export capability you can purchase for Sibelius (due to limitations on Sibelius plug-ins).
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