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Sasha.
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   Posted 6/21/2009 11:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hello again,

I'm in 3/4 time, with 2 layers. I'm wanting the rest to be a full bar rest like this:


But all I can seem to get is a dotted half rest like this:


I tried viewing just that layer and I clicked on the 'change to real whole rests' plug-in but it did nothing.
All it does now is disappear when I view all layers.

Any suggestions? Thank you :)


--Sasha

Mac OS 10.5.6 | Finale 2009b | Dolet 4.7

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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 6/22/2009 6:58 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was able to do what you want using Speedy. I input the second layer, then put a whole note in the first layer and changed it to a rest. I got the dialog box asking me if I wanted to move the extra beat or delete it and I said no, leave the layer as it is. I then moved the whole rest down and over a bit so it is centered correctly.

I don't know if there will be playback issues with an extra beat in that measure in one layer, but at least you see that it can be done.

Bill


Finale 2009b (have 2010 but not using it)
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Obiwan Kenobi
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   Posted 6/22/2009 10:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A little point:

Engraving rules wants that when rests are in a second voice (here: layer) they have to follow the music above according to the meter.
So, in the case exposed here, it would be convenient to choose either a dotted half rest (placed at the begining of the measure, and not in the middle) or a half rest followed by a quarter one. The whole rest is, logically, only used when the measure doesn't house any music.

Regards
Bruno
Paris-France


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Post Edited (Obiwan Kenobi) : 6/22/2009 10:17:43 AM (GMT-5)

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migman
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   Posted 6/22/2009 11:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I agree with Bruno, but just as an academic exercise (and to avoid getting the beat-overrun message every time you touch the measure with the speedy tool), you could put a whole rest in 3/4 as a tuplet of 4 beats in the place of 3. Still, probably best to save whole rests for empty measures.
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Flint
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   Posted 6/22/2009 11:11 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That's incorrect, if a voice is resting for an entire measure, the whole rest should be used.

Bill's method is how to do it, and No, it won't affect or mess up the playback.


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill Duncan

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RVS Lee
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   Posted 6/22/2009 11:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bruno,

In this case, I would have thought that "Engraving rules" would have deemed the 'upper layer' rest superfluous. I would only use it when the two layers refer to two different instruments; in that case, since the upper layer instrument is tacet in the bar, it would take an 'empty measure' whole rest no matter what the meter.

In this case, the only reason to use a full measure rest would be to reinforce the independence of two voices/layers. That level of independence means that the two voices/layers are in effect two separate instruments, and of course that means an 'empty measure' whole rest.

RVS Lee
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Obiwan Kenobi
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   Posted 6/22/2009 11:28 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Flint said...
That's incorrect,


No. Used by many publishers, sorry...
Nonetheless, in the case of two instruments parts sharing the same staff (often used in orchestral score), the whole rest is possible, of course. But note that LTP publishing didn't specify if its score shows two voices or two instruments parts...

Bruno


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migman
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   Posted 6/22/2009 11:30 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RVS Lee said...
In this case, the only reason to use a full measure rest would be to reinforce the independence of two voices/layers. That level of independence means that the two voices/layers are in effect two separate instruments

Are you saying that the two voices are two different instruments, or that if they were, that would be a case for the whole rest? Personally, I don't recognize the piece from one measure.
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RVS Lee
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   Posted 6/22/2009 12:41 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Migman -

My point is that is the full measure rest should only be used for a second voice/layer in a single-staff/single-instrument context (still with me?) if the two voices are so independent that they should be treated as though they were different instruments.  In that case, the rules governing notation of two instruments on the same staff (orchestral scores, PV scores, short scores) would apply - and that would be a default whole rest.

RVS Lee 

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Jetcopy
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   Posted 6/22/2009 12:52 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
All the publishers that I've engraved for have always wanted a default whole rest in these cases. I would never use a dotted half rest. I also did some checking with my various reference sources, Gardner Reads' MUSIC NOTATION and Kurt Stone's MUSIC NOTATION IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY. They both concur with using a whole rest no matter what the time signature is. In addition the whole rest should be offset vertically from it's standard position in the staff.

JT


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RVS Lee
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   Posted 6/22/2009 1:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Bruno,

Seriously, can you throw me a citation? I've worked all over, and I can't think of a context where I've seen a literal-value rest covering the entire bar. Is this a guitar-specific notation standard that JT and I don't know about?

RVS Lee
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Obiwan Kenobi
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   Posted 6/22/2009 1:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RVS Lee said...
Hey Bruno,

Seriously, can you throw me a citation? I've worked all over, and I can't think of a context where I've seen a literal-value rest covering the entire bar. Is this a guitar-specific notation standard that JT and I don't know about?

RVS Lee


I am speaking exclusively in classical music, dear...
See, for example the Schumann's piano scores published by Henle... and/or Brahms published by Breitkopf.

Bruno


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RVS Lee
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   Posted 6/22/2009 1:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Bruno,

Darling, I've been copying, engraving, and editing classical music (whatever that means) for going on 25 years, and all I'm saying is I'd like to see an example of the syntax.  I've got my Henle Schumann in the other room; could you be a little more specific?  Also, Breitkopf Brahms, which iteration, please?

RVS Lee

 

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Sasha.
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   Posted 6/22/2009 7:42 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well...thank you all for the lively debate :) Frankly, I just think the dotted half rest looks ugly, although either way it isn't my decision to make (whether it is musically correct or not).
This is guitar music, but it is specifically classical guitar, if that helps any. I think I will stick with the whole rest if I can get it to work.


--Sasha

Mac OS 10.5.6 | Finale 2009b | Dolet 4.7

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Obiwan Kenobi
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   Posted 6/23/2009 2:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RVS Lee said...
Bruno,
Darling


I beg your pardon ??


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RVS Lee
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   Posted 6/23/2009 3:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Obiwan Kenobi said...

I am speaking exclusively in classical music, dear...
See, for example the Schumann's piano scores published by Henle... and/or Brahms published by Breitkopf.

Bruno

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Les Preludes
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   Posted 6/23/2009 4:03 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
RVS Lee said...
Obiwan Kenobi said...



I am speaking exclusively in classical music, dear...
See, for example the Schumann's piano scores published by Henle... and/or Brahms published by Breitkopf.

Bruno




Bruno, RVS Lee seems to be perplexed by your addressing him/her as "dear". RVS, in the European manner, such usage is used freely within both genders.

Les
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migman
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   Posted 6/23/2009 4:47 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear is what you would call a wife, girlfriend or sweetheart.
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Motet
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   Posted 6/23/2009 9:50 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
LTP, it case it wasn't clear, you can just enter a whole rest in the empty layer of your 3/4 bar by normal means. Turn off "check for extra notes" at least temporarily. Don't use the plug-in.


(Finale 2005b on Windows XP)

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Sasha.
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   Posted 6/24/2009 2:52 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I ended up doing it the tuplet way, which worked fine. I will try it your way as well, that makes sense too :)
Thank you everyone, very lively debate in here....


--Sasha

Mac OS 10.5.7 | Finale 2009b | Dolet 4.8

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Dr. Wiggy
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   Posted 6/24/2009 4:33 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
migman said...
Dear is what you would call a wife, girlfriend or sweetheart.

Dear Sir,

I wish to disagree, my dear chap.

Love you xxx


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Post Edited (Wiggy) : 6/24/2009 4:34:34 AM (GMT-5)

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migman
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   Posted 6/24/2009 7:54 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
You forgot ooo. What's love without kisses?
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Flint
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   Posted 6/24/2009 10:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
This thread has given me a well-needed morning laugh. :)


woodwind specialist and doubler - Finale 2009, GPO 2nd ed. Full version, Garritan Jazz & Big Band, Garritan Concert and Marching Band, Windows Vista 32-bit SP1, 4GB RAM, Soundblaster Audigy II zs

"It is the job of copyist/arranger/composer to not only make the music clear and readable, but to also make it impossible to play incorrectly." - paraphrased from Bill Duncan

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Jean-Francois Charles
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   Posted 6/24/2009 10:15 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It's also possible in Simple Entry. As you said, disable Check for extra notes in the Simple Entry Options, enter a whole note on layer 2, and change it to rest ("R" shortcut). The whole rest is automatically centered.
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