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Philip.
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   Posted 8/11/2009 2:10 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Many of the TGTools (full version) don't work in 2010. Does anyone have a solution? This is huge. (Right now I am desperately missing the Modify>Transfer>Layout option - can't get it to work)
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encephalon
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   Posted 8/11/2009 3:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, that's a bummer. It probably cost me 20 hours of work on a project a few weeks ago. This emphasizes a couple of points:

1. TG Tools is an awesome, indispensable part of the Finale work-flow.
2. TG Tools is not developed by MakeMusic, so there are no guarantees that it will work when you update.
3. We have to remember that before we upgrade. ;-)

IIRC, TG Tools was updated for 2009 sometime around December 2008. If Tobias is on schedule, we'll just have to wait until the end of this year.


encephalon
Lush Music

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Bill Stevens
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   Posted 8/11/2009 3:29 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGTools was actually never updated for 2009. Most of it works okay, except for utilities that don't work with the new Expressions tool.

Maybe if we send Tobias a cake, or some booze...

Bill


Finale 2009b (have 2010 but not using it)
Staff Paper and #2 Pencil

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Michael Mortilla
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   Posted 8/11/2009 4:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TG Tools is long overdue for a paid update. I think TObias is undervaluing the work he does to make TG Tools compliant with Finale updates. THose who need them - need them!


OS X 10.5.6; Dual 2.0 PPC; 4GB RAM; FInale 2009

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gracenote
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   Posted 8/11/2009 5:34 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Stevens said...
TGTools was actually never updated for 2009. Most of it works okay, except for utilities that don't work with the new Expressions tool.

Maybe if we send Tobias a cake, or some booze...

Bill


I couldn't get the Smart Split Point to work with Finale 2008. What is TG tools compatible with?


GN

Specs: iMac 20“ Intel, 2.4ghz, 4GB ram, OS 10.5.7; iBook PPC 1.2ghz, 768M ram, OS 10.4.11

Finale 2008b.r1, Keystation 49E MIDI controller, Yamaha PSR 520, MIDIMAN 1x1

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Philip.
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   Posted 8/11/2009 6:17 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Bill Stevens said...
TGTools was actually never updated for 2009. Most of it works okay, except for utilities that don't work with the new Expressions tool.
Bill

Technically, there was an official 2009 update, but it's true, expression-based tools (such as the Text Expression Sorter) didn't work well.

In 2010, TGTools is mostly broken -- buttons in the dialogs don't work, and there are other issues.

encephalon said...
Yeah, that's a bummer. It probably cost me 20 hours of work on a project a few weeks ago.

I suspect your time is worth more than $5/an hour, as is mine! I just sent him an e-mail inquiring if he was still developing the plugins, and if a version 3 would ever be in the works. I would gladly pay $100 for it.

Update: I just heard back from Tobias, he said that he hopes to be able to make the update soon. He said he doesn't have any plans yet for new features, but it might happen.

Post Edited (Philip.) : 8/11/2009 9:25:41 PM (GMT-5)

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encephalon
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   Posted 8/11/2009 9:26 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Actually, *I* said it. =)

And I'd gladly pay much more than $100 for the transfer>layout tool alone. For anyone who does full orchestral work with linked parts this is a life-saver. At the most basic level, it allows you to quickly make split parts (eg: horn 1, 2, 3, 4, or Trumpet 1, 2, 3, etc.) from combined staves in the score. Otherwise, you spend 6-times the amount of effort and it's really a pain to get the layouts the same (back and forth referencing of the data). This brought my most recent project to a grinding crawl and I finally gave up and made the horns and trumpets 2/3 read the same part and do the divisi themselves.


encephalon
Lush Music

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Philip.
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   Posted 8/11/2009 10:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sorry encephalon! I fixed my post "for the record"

Yeah, my method to replace Modify>Transfer>Layout in 2010 was to take screenshots !

What a regression. I suggest we all write Tobias a very nice personal e-mail and let him sincerely know how much we rely on his product.

Version 2 is now early 8 years old (!) and Tobias's development of TGTools has waned considerably since 2004. Even though some features are obsolete or have been folded into the "lite" version bundled with Finale, as you said, TGTools still remains indispensable for many users. I wonder what the licensing issues are. Do you think MM will ever buy it outright?
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Philip.
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   Posted 8/11/2009 10:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A tangential note: In the early part of this decade, there was a golden age of Finale plugins, with Tobias, Robert Patterson, Jari Williamson and Robert Piechaud at the forefront as best I can recall (apologies if I am leaving anyone out).

Many of their innovations made their way into essential elements of the program (TGTools, Patterson Beams, Text Search and Replace, Human Playback)

Now it seems that plugin development has all but ground to a halt. Over on the Sibelius side (www.sibelius.com/download/plugins/), there is robust development of plugins going on, not to mention all the plugins included with the program. Many of them are written by a gentleman named Bob Zawalich, but there are many other useful ones too and new plugins are constantly being made available. It has sure come a long way from the days of Sibelius 4, when you were not allowed to undo a plugin!

Anyway, a salute to the Finale for the plugin writers of (mostly) yesteryear...and a hope that a few others may rejuvenate this useful part of the program.
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Saffron
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   Posted 8/12/2009 4:28 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Some people will already be aware of my aversion to relying on third-party plug-ins for core music creation activities, and this sort of thing just emphasizes the point. Yes, TG Tools is an awesome collection, to use the "A" word, but almost by definition, it's going to be 6-9 months out of phase with Finale releases, because it's being written and maintained by someone (Tobias) who is outside of the MakeMusic development loop.

So if you really must work with TG Tools, then the solution is this: don't upgrade to any one year's version of Finale until the corresponding TG Tools update has been released.

Meanwhile, I would dearly love to see our generic reliance on plug-ins removed by Finale including some of the fundamental music notation features which currently require plug-ins - things like tremolos (which the bundled TG-lite can create, but not remove!), properly angled beams (why do we need to use Patterson, just to match the appearance of Sibelius' built-in beaming?), alignment of expressions, articulations, and so on.
 
I believe that plug-ins really should be reserved for the esoteric, or for mass automation, and not as an excuse to avoid building full notation capabilities into the parent product.
 
Brian


 

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Saffron
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   Posted 8/12/2009 4:30 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Philip. said...
A tangential note: In the early part of this decade, there was a golden age of Finale plugins, with Tobias, Robert Patterson, Jari Williamson and Robert Piechaud at the forefront as best I can recall (apologies if I am leaving anyone out).

The lack of TG 2010 (so far) probably illustrates why: all that work that Tobias has done on TG Tools over the years, gets trashed ever 12 months when Finale's internal data structures and mechanisms undergo their annual change. As a programmer, it must be desparately depressing to complete one's work, test it, and release it, only to find 4 months later that it is necessary to start over with half the tools!
 
In this respect alone, it would help the likes of Tobias enormously if Finale's release cycle slowed down to the more usual 18-24 months of rival packages ...
 
Brian


 

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Philip.
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   Posted 8/12/2009 12:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Saffron said...
So if you really must work with TG Tools, then the solution is this: don't upgrade to any one year's version of Finale until the corresponding TG Tools update has been released.

Yeah, but when a client sends you Finale 2010 files, the choices are 1) take the job and suffer without TGTools, 2) export to 2009 via XML, 3) pass on the job. 2 and 3 are not realistic options IMO. If I never worked with anyone else's files but my own, then yes, I would be a late adopter, but that's not the case.

Saffron said...
Meanwhile, I would dearly love to see our generic reliance on plug-ins removed by Finale including some of the fundamental music notation features which currently require plug-ins - things like tremolos (which the bundled TG-lite can create, but not remove!), properly angled beams (why do we need to use Patterson, just to match the appearance of Sibelius' built-in beaming?), alignment of expressions, articulations, and so on.

I believe that plug-ins really should be reserved for the esoteric, or for mass automation, and not as an excuse to avoid building full notation capabilities into the parent product.

Agreed.

Saffron said...
In this respect alone, it would help the likes of Tobias enormously if Finale's release cycle slowed down to the more usual 18-24 months of rival packages ...

Agreed. Finale is not TurboTax.
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Michael Good
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   Posted 8/12/2009 12:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Philip, why is the MusicXML export not a realistic option for you when a client sends you 2010 files? Especially if you use the full Dolet 4 for Finale plug-in so you can import into an empty document with all your preferences and libraries set as you want them?

If there are particularly important problems that we can improve for a future release, please let us know. Lots of people use MusicXML for just this type of workflow, where the source comes in a later version of Finale that what will be used for the final version.


Michael Good
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Saffron
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   Posted 8/12/2009 1:07 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Philip, as you know, I've commented many times before about MM's policy of making each year's Finale file format totally non-backwards compatible. I've often suggested that this may be more for marketing leverage, than for genuine technical reasons (I mean, can they really have needed 20 attempts so far to get the .MUS format right?), and your comment ...

"Yeah, but when a client sends you Finale 2010 files, the choices are 1) take the job and suffer without TGTools, 2) export to 2009 via XML, 3) pass on the job. 2 and 3 are not realistic options IMO. If I never worked with anyone else's files but my own, then yes, I would be a late adopter, but that's not the case."

... simply backs this up.

Of course, it would be unkind to mention that the "other" world's-best-selling music program does allow users to save files in older formats - right back to Sibelius 2 - so anyone with that system doesn't have your particular conundrum.

"Agreed. Finale is not TurboTax."

Ah! That's why my tax return is always late! lol
 
Brian



 

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Philip.
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   Posted 8/12/2009 5:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Michael Good said...
Philip, why is the MusicXML export not a realistic option for you when a client sends you 2010 files? Especially if you use the full Dolet 4 for Finale plug-in so you can import into an empty document with all your preferences and libraries set as you want them?

If there are particularly important problems that we can improve for a future release, please let us know. Lots of people use MusicXML for just this type of workflow, where the source comes in a later version of Finale that what will be used for the final version.

Hi Michael,

I would use MusicXML if the final files had to be in Finale 2009. But the client is giving me 2010 files and expects 2010 files back. To export 2010 files back to 2009, even though I have 2010, just to work in TGTools, wasn't worth it in this case - ultimately I preferred keeping everything in the same version throughout the entire workflow.
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Philip.
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   Posted 9/10/2009 9:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I was just wondering if anyone has been in touch with Tobias recently about 2010 compatibility. I sent him an e-mail a month ago. Having just finished a huge rush job in 2009, I realize how important TG Tools is to my workflow.

If anyone at MM is reading this, I wonder if MM can arrange to buy the license for the full plug-in set from Tobias if he is unable (or unwilling) to maintain it. If MM would commit to at least ensuring compatibility with future versions, that would be great. It is too important for many of us users.

Or, I wonder if anyone with any expert Finale / plug-in knowledge can figure out what is causing the problems in TG Tools in 2010. Many of the problems have to do with lists not displaying properly or radio buttons not working. Maybe Tobias would be willing to allow someone else to fix the problems? I don't know.
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David Ward
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   Posted 9/10/2009 10:30 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I got this from Tobias about a week ago:

I hope to update TGTools soon.

Kind Regards,
Tobias Giesen


David Ward
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Brian Williams
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   Posted 9/19/2009 3:05 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
While waiting for the Transfer>Layout TGTools plugin to be updated for Finale 2010, you can get the same results with the Special Part Extraction method. The only drawback is that all parts are in separate files.


Brian Williams
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